Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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eyeresist

Quote from: Jezetha on July 15, 2008, 12:22:09 PM
Bonehelm, why not try Barbirolli's Sixth... It's terrific. But be quick with dl'ing, because this Rapidshare account will expire on Thursday and I am not renewing it...

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191889/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_II._Scherzo._Wuchtig.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191891/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_III_Andante.mp3

Jezetha, I must inform you that you have the two middle movements the wrong way round!  :P

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: eyeresist on July 15, 2008, 11:44:50 PM
Jezetha, I must inform you that you have the two middle movements the wrong way round!  :P

You're absolutely right. Barbirolli: II. Andante and III. Scherzo. I seem (unconsciously) to have followed my own preference... Well spotted!  :-[ ;D
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Cato

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 15, 2008, 04:22:06 PM
Ipso facto means 'as a consequence'  - litterally "from that fact" (IIRC my high school Latin). And idée fixe (litterally 'fixed idea') simply means something that keeps returning, or that simply won't go away. A motto, a harmless obsession are idées fixes.

Quite right!  Although I think Eric did go away!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

greg

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 15, 2008, 04:22:06 PM
Ipso facto means 'as a consequence'  - litterally "from that fact" (IIRC my high school Latin). And idée fixe (litterally 'fixed idea') simply means something that keeps returning, or that simply won't go away. A motto, a harmless obsession are idées fixes.
Cool, thanks for the explanation. I was right about the second one after all (i got an explanation while reading about Takemitsu's orchestral works), the first is new for me.

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: Cato on July 16, 2008, 05:58:31 AM
Quite right!  Although I think Eric did go away!

Aren't Eric's exits only a momentary pause before his next entrance ? The man is obviously an old hand at theatre antics :D

Lilas Pastia

Two quite fascinating performances of Das Lied von der Erde. Both fatally flawed by technical shortcomings, but worth investigating by the intrepid:

- Bruno Walter and the NYPO, with Kathleen Ferrier and Set Svanholm. Live from Carnegie Hall, 1948. Obviously frayed recording, but it still allows to hear a transcendent interpretation from the conductor. I didn't find much transcendency in the singing, though. Svanholm is a blustery tenor who doesn't convey anything from the poetry he declaims so forcefully. Ferrier is moving but her singing is as usual fraught with intonation problems. My wife, who knows nothing about music exclaimed: elle chante faux!. Unfortunately she was quite right. Although the voice is as ever gloriously rich, the singer simply can't control her emission. The final 'ewigs' are extraordinarily moving, though. Walter's conducting makes this worth hearing. The sepulchral, spooky character of the central orchestral interlude (in Der Abschied) is absolutely stunning. The sound is badly coloured and saturated, quite disagreeable to listen to.

- The mezzo in the other radio broadcast transcript I listened to is Yvonne Minton. Her instrument is absolutely reliable, as well as being tonally refulgent and secure throughout its range. But she is no Ferrier and although she pleases the ear, the attention wanders - a very unfortunate thing in this work. But her colleague Jon Vickers offers ample compensation. He delivers a riveting, spellbinding interpretation and a vocally sterling performance. From stentorian outpourings to mesmerizingly crooned soft notes, he offers the best combination of voice and mind I've heard in this thankless part. Pierre Boulez conducts the Paris orchestra. The sound is atrocious - there's all kind of electronic interferences, the audio signal ping-pongs maddeningly between the right and left channels in the first two minutes, and there's no musical image to speak of. That's too bad, because Boulez seems to conduct a good, well-balanced performance. If ever there was an official release of those 1982 tapes, it would be worth acquiring. It would complement anybody's favourite version with a better female alto.

Speaking of which, I was surprised to read in the liner notes to the Walter recording that it's Walter who imposed the mezzo version around the musical world, after having premiered the work in the tenor - baritone combination. Apparently Mahler envisaged using a female low voice only as an alternative to a male one, "which he favoured". I had always thought it was the other way around. Anybody knows anything about that? 

greg

anyone know about this?

a review for the Mahler 10 score:

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?item=3140919&cart=3426771296542660&cm_re=289.1.4-_-Results+Item-_-Title


Jokl edition should be banned
"This corrupted edition refers to the 1951 publication and should be banned. There is a better alternative: Cooke and within two years Universal will publish a a new edition of all of the sketches as part of the Kritisache Gesamt Ausgabe"
-- fransbuilder@hotmail.com from The Hague, March 31, 2008


i have no idea what he's talking about..... should i wait 2 years and not buy this one?

John Copeland

Mahlers 10th - I don't really do anything other than the Adagio, because almost everything else is 'reconstructed'.  There are a number of Mahler 10th 'reconstructions' out there, so don't wait.  I have four different 'reconstructions' and I couldn't bide another one.  The one I recommend most is Barshai with the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie - his reconstruction IMHO is superb, rivalling Cookes famous interpretation...although I cannot tell you why this is so, just a preference for sound quality and Barshais understanding of Mahlers Symphonic temprament.
"Kritisache Gesamt Ausgabe"  -  I haven't a clue either.

Lilas Pastia

That's a thorny question that will be best resolved by personal impressions.  The various completions/reconstructions have been performed by dedicated musicologists who pored over available manuscripts and other sources for thousands of hours before submitting their efforts for publication. I respect that. But whatever their merits, the proof of the pudding is probably not in the various editions. A great interpretation and performance of a given text will still carry more weigth than any scholarly effort brought forth by an ineffectual messenger.

IOW that Barshai version is still the one I look for when (not often) feeling Mahler's last, incomplete and unfathomable thoughts should be heard in performance.



DavidRoss

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
IOW that Barshai version is still the one I look for when (not often) feeling Mahler's last, incomplete and unfathomable thoughts should be heard in performance.
Hubba, hubba, indeed!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

eyeresist

Barshai is much too dry for me. Rattle/BPO (Cooke III) is my preference, intense and not mannered as R can sometimes be. Haven't heard Chailly's highly-rated recording. The Wheeler arrangement on Naxos is apparently closer to the sketches (conductor also referred to Cooke in preparation); performance is a good run-through but lacks the last degree of conviction. K Sanderling (Cooke II) has received some praise but, apart from dated sound and less than brilliant ensemble, I thought S hadn't fully grasped the work.

M forever

Have you "fully grasped" Mahler's work?

This comment surprised me on many levels. I haven't heard this particular recording, but a lot of the Eterna recordings I have heard from Sanderling and the BSO from the 70s have outstanding sound. They may not have had the most high-end equipment, but the recording engineers they had were extremely well trained musically and technically. Some of these recordings are, as far as recording quality is concerned, among the best I have ever heard. Great stereo placement, very transparent and "natural" - but just not "sweetened" or "beefed up" sound. The playing of the BSO was indeed not as "brilliant" as some "virtuoso" orchestras, but usually very solid and with a hearty, slightly rough and "honest" sonority which I have always enjoyed. So now I am really curious. Maybe I should get this recording.

I haven't heard Rattle/BP nor Chailly/RSOB, but I heard both in concert when they were recorded. So it might be interesting to revisit these performances through the recordings.

greg

I saw this on wikipedia: (Das Lied von der Erde)

QuoteThe last movement is very difficult to conduct because of its cadenza writing for voice and solo instruments, which often flows over the barlines, "Ohne Rücksicht auf das Tempo" (Without regard for the tempo) according to Mahler's own direction. Bruno Walter related[cite this quote] that Mahler showed him the score of this movement and asked, "Do you know how to conduct this? Because I certainly don't." Mahler also hesitated to put the piece before the public because of its relentless negativity, unusual even for him. "Won't people go home and shoot themselves?" he asked.[

Now that i have the score ( :) )..... ahem, now that anyone with internet can have the score, i decided to take yet another listen to the last movement for now.

I've always found it challenging and have never gotten into it much, though i've always loved the last few minutes. The beginning of Der Abschied is so jerky that it's hard to listen to, and the oboe is so nasal and irritating that it nearly hurts my ears. I don't get why he'd write so many fast woodwind figures like he does.......  i have the Klemperer recording, and i hear that's about the best it gets.  :-\ Really, though, the singing is perfect but i'm not sure i like the way it was recorded much either. I'm almost tempted to only listen to the last ten or so minutes from now on, which is perfect- i mean, if the singer is dwelling on the word "ewig........ewig...." you know it's gotta be good.

Is that last quote really his? If it is, that's great  ;D


greg

anyone read this yet?

http://www.amazon.com/Gustav-Mahler-Vol-Short-1907-1911/dp/0198163878/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219678526&sr=1-1

I hear it's actually 1700 pages long!  :o
But it's $80, and way out of my price range.
It's the 4th and final volume in a series of biographies, including analysis of his last works- Das Lied, and the last 2 symphonies.


Sergeant Rock

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on August 25, 2008, 07:42:30 AM
anyone read this yet?

http://www.amazon.com/Gustav-Mahler-Vol-Short-1907-1911/dp/0198163878/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219678526&sr=1-1

I hear it's actually 1700 pages long!  :o
But it's $80, and way out of my price range.
It's the 4th and final volume in a series of biographies, including analysis of his last works- Das Lied, and the last 2 symphonies.



I'm currently reading it. It's 1758 pages long plus another 16 covering the contents, introduction, etc. I really wish it had been split into two volumes. The thing weighs about seven pounds; it's a pain to hold for extended periods. I have the first three volumes too (bought the first in 1977).

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

greg

i'm so jealous........

but it isn't a be-all end-all bio, is it?

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on August 25, 2008, 09:06:37 AM
i'm so jealous........

but it isn't a be-all end-all bio, is it?

As an almost day to day, extremely detailed account of his life, yes, I would describe it as that. For the Mahler fanatic, I think it's a must read. It's an essential reference book too. As a critical study of the music, there are other books that dig deeper.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

greg

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2008, 09:22:16 AM
As an almost day to day, extremely detailed account of his life, yes, I would describe it as that. For the Mahler fanatic, I think it's a must read. It's an essential reference book too. As a critical study of the music, there are other books that dig deeper.

Sarge
Excellent.

M forever

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2008, 09:22:16 AM
As an almost day to day, extremely detailed account of his life, yes, I would describe it as that. For the Mahler fanatic, I think it's a must read. It's an essential reference book too. As a critical study of the music, there are other books that dig deeper.

Sarge

Have you read Floros' books about Mahler, his literary interests, the musical language of the 19th century as reflected in Mahler's works, and about the symphonies? Extremely interesting. I think only the book about the symphonies has been translated into English.