Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Opus106]

I'm listening to Mahler's second for the second time in about 10 hours... that's surprising and shocking... this hasn't even happened with Beethoven! (That's probably because I didn't have a recording handy (CD or downloaded) when I listened to those works for the first time. )

I would've laughed my rear end off at this thought a week ago!!!

[MishaK]

I am going to hear Haitink do Mahler 2 with the CSO in a few weeks. Back in 1995/96 Haitink conducted this same work with the CSO which was his last guest appearance with the CSO before being appointed Principal Conductor in 2006. I'm excited to hear them reprise this work. I was in collge when they did it the last time and it was my first live Mahler 2 - unforgettable.

[imperfection]

I am going to hear Haitink do Mahler 2 with the CSO in a few weeks. Back in 1995/96 Haitink conducted this same work with the CSO which was his last guest appearance with the CSO before being appointed Principal Conductor in 2006. I'm excited to hear them reprise this work. I was in collge when they did it the last time and it was my first live Mahler 2 - unforgettable.

Lucky you...hope you enjoy it, but please do report back!

[Senta]

The world is right again...  0:)   

[Lilas Pastia]

The world is right again...  0:)   

Meaning so predictable ? 

[M forever]

Lucky you...hope you enjoy it, but please do report back!

I hope he enjoys it, too, but oddly, I said that before, but my good wishes and O Mensch' response were deleted.

[Joe_Campbell]

And mine in the midst as well, though admittedly, it wasn't really a needed comment.

[bhodges]

So back to Mahler.  Here is an interesting review by Bernard Jacobson of the Mahler 8th in Seattle, with Gerard Schwarz and the Seattle Symphony.

--Bruce

[imperfection]

M Forever, I recall that you had a very high opinion on a Mahler 3 recording, but I forgot which one it was. You  said it was one of the best things you've ever heard by anyone, or something to that effect. Was that Chailly/RCO or Boulez or someone else? I want to check it out.

[M forever]

Boulez/WP and Abbado/WP are my top recordings of this symphony because they both get the fairy tale athmosphere and lyrical "Wunderhorn" tone of the music totally "right" and manage to pay attention to all the fine detail while at the same time, everything is put into context. Plus the sound palette of the WP fits this music perfectly, especially the Vienna F horns which are exactly the kind of instrument Mahler heard in his day, and the horns are very prominent in this work. There are many good recordings of this music, but these really stand out clearly. The Chailly recording is very competently done, but I found it rather disappointing because it takes a far too generalized view of the music and only emphasizes the darker, massive aspects of it at the expense of fine detail and lyrical "story telling". The massiveness of the music happens more or less "automatically" in the right places because of the sheer numbers involved and Mahler's extremely carefully layered orchestration. The "devil" is in the detail!

[imperfection]

Boulez/WP and Abbado/WP are my top recordings of this symphony because they both get the fairy tale athmosphere and lyrical "Wunderhorn" tone of the music totally "right" and manage to pay attention to all the fine detail while at the same time, everything is put into context. Plus the sound palette of the WP fits this music perfectly, especially the Vienna F horns which are exactly the kind of instrument Mahler heard in his day, and the horns are very prominent in this work. There are many good recordings of this music, but these really stand out clearly. The Chailly recording is very competently done, but I found it rather disappointing because it takes a far too generalized view of the music and only emphasizes the darker, massive aspects of it at the expense of fine detail and lyrical "story telling". The massiveness of the music happens more or less "automatically" in the right places because of the sheer numbers involved and Mahler's extremely carefully layered orchestration. The "devil" is in the detail!

Thanks for explaining the reason you like them, have you also heard Boulez's 2007 live performance with the Staatskapelle Berlin? The recording is available on symphony share and I would want to know your opinion on it before downloading. Then if I really like it, I'll buy the Boulez/WP. 

As for the Abbado/WP, is the one that is part of his complete DG cycle, with the Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Jessye Norman as soprano, 1982?

[M forever]

Yes. There is also one later recording with the BP, but the earlier WP recording is more "o the point".

I have the live Boulez recording from 2007 but didn't really get to listen to it yet. The version I have doesn't have so good sound (IIRC, I got it from Operashare). I don't know if the one offered on Symphonyshare is the exact same one, or from a better source. The DG recording, BTW, is also extremely well recorded. It almost sounds like you are in the Muskverein, in row 12 or so.

[Cato]

M Forever's above comment on DGG's engineering certainly holds true with my recent purchase: the Boulez  Mahler  Eighth Symphony.  The organ at the beginning gives the bass in my surround-sound system a work-out it has rarely had!  Plus the clarity of the lines! Marvelous conducting on the part of Pierre Boulez and on that of DGG technicians.

Highly recommended!

[M forever]

Does the organ come from the right side?

[imperfection]

After watching the Resurrection DVD with Staatskapelle Berlin, I find Boulez surprisingly clear in his directions (probably not just only in Mahler), whether in his gestures or musical intent. He is so determined with the way the piece is going to go, you could hear and see that right off the bat. I find that quite interesting as he is a very modernist, difficult composer and musician in general anyways. But then, I wonder, would his gestures really be similar in scope when he's doing Bartok, with all that poly rhythmic stuff going on? And 2nd Viennese school works? I should see how he does it sometime.

[M forever]

But then, I wonder, would his gestures really be similar in scope when he's doing Bartok, with all that poly rhythmic stuff going on? 

Yes. Because orchestral musicians aren't idiots who need the conductor to show them every single rhythmic figure and subdivision. They are highly trained and experienced professionals who can play all that stuff without somebody doing the human metronome for them. In order for the orchestra to play together, they just need the conductor to outline the basic tempo. Actually, they don't even need that. A lot of the the time, orchestras don't play together because, but in spite of the conductor. Most of the coordination is not done by following the man with the stick (or in Boulez' case, without the stick), but by ear and feeling.

Where the good conductors come in is when they shape the tempo and phrasing and expression flexibly, and good conductors often show that in a simple, unmistakeable, to-the-point way which doesn't look all that "spectacular" to the uninformed observers who think the conductor is there to act out the music and the musicians are there to translate his act into sound. But to the informed observers - including the musicians -, that is what counts and what makes the difference between a stiff time beater, or a podium clown, or somebody who looks like he has a constant spastic attack - and a really good conductor who knows what's going on and who can lead a large group of people in coordinated and alive music making.

[Cato]

Does the organ come from the right side?

Concerning the Boulez/DGG  Mahler Eighth: The organ seemingly comes from everywhere, but especially from the bass which I have on the floor on the left/center, because of the nature of the room and our furniture.

And on your last comment: one wonders what Mahler and other conductors looked like from that era, as freedom of phrasing and rubato were supposedly much more evident back then.  I have seen silhouettes of Mahler conducting, and they seem fairly espressivo.

[karlhenning]

Maybe he was mugging for the silhouettist 

[Cato]

Maybe he was mugging for the silhouettist 

Wocka Wocka!   0:)

Let's see...Mahler mugging...   Hmmm!

[M forever]

Concerning the Boulez/DGG  Mahler Eighth: The organ seemingly comes from everywhere, but especially from the bass which I have on the floor on the left/center, because of the nature of the room and our furniture.

I see now the recording was actually made in the Jesus-Christus-Kirche in Berlin as a studio recording. I thought it was made in the Philharmonie where the organ is on the right side of the hall, that's why I wondered if it came from there in the recording. But obviously not, because that was made in a different location.

And on your last comment: one wonders what Mahler and other conductors looked like from that era, as freedom of phrasing and rubato were supposedly much more evident back then.  I have seen silhouettes of Mahler conducting, and they seem fairly espressivo.

That doesn't really have anything to do with my last comment.