Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Renfield]

The Sinopoli is probably one of the few major complete Mahler cycles of note I do not own, yet. But I have heard his 8th, and it (coupled with the praise from M, whose taste mine agrees with) has intrigued me enough to consider the full cycle, despite the price.

[Jay F]

The Sinopoli is probably one of the few major complete Mahler cycles of note I do not own, yet. But I have heard his 8th, and it (coupled with the praise from M, whose taste mine agrees with) has intrigued me enough to consider the full cycle, despite the price.

His 5th and 8th are among my favorites.

[imperfection]

His 5th and 8th are among my favorites.

Could you explain the reasons, please?

[Jay F]

Could you explain the reasons, please?

I don't know the vocabulary for describing music. What I do know is that it took me a long time to find a M5 I actually liked listening to. I mentally rejected both Bernsteins, one by Barbirolli, and I can't remember now how many others, before I heard Sinopoli's, and it turned out to be the one I loved. It's kind of like Goldilocks and the three bears (it was just right); or to paraphrase from the old definition of obscenity, "I knew it when I heard it." I first heard Sinopoli's M5 sometime in the late '80s or early '90s, so it became my first, or imprint, version. Over time, I grew to like other versions, incl. Bernstein's on DG, and Tennstedt's.

By the time I heard Sinopoli's M8 in the '00s, I already had two favorite versions, Bernstein's on CBS and Tennstedt's, so it was unusual for another version to break through. But it did, and it became a favorite. I love all three of them now, with Bernstein's probably being my favorite favorite, especially when I play the first movement from the M2 Bernstein Edition version (the original CD version of the first movement is very rough sounding).

I hope this works as some kind of explanation. It's not as simple a matter as liking the sound quality more -- though that is important -- as a lot of people don't like the sound of Bernstein's CBS Mahler, and most of those are my favorite versions and I listen to them to this day.

[greg]

First actual recording I've heard of the Symphonic Prelude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiRdgFLEn8M

any other good ones out there?

[Jay F]

First actual recording I've heard of the Symphonic Prelude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiRdgFLEn8M

Thanks. I'd never even heard of the Symphonic Prelude. It sounds more like Bruckner than Mahler, though.

[greg]

Thanks. I'd never even heard of the Symphonic Prelude. It sounds more like Bruckner than Mahler, though.

I agree, it does sound a little bit more Brucknerian... although if you compare it to Mahler's early Piano Quintet, the overall sound is extremely similar.

I'm amazed at how certain works like this and The Song of Sorrow can go unlistened to- or even, unheard of, by people who collect 50 recordings of the same symphony. The only reason I'm even aware of the Symphonic Prelude is completely by mistake! I used to go to this one website, and found it here:

http://www.classicalarchives.com/composer/2937.html#music

wondering if it was even written by him. Then, I read some article about it on here a long time ago and find out it really was his. And now, finally, I hear a non-MIDI  recording. 

[imperfection]

I agree, it does sound a little bit more Brucknerian... although if you compare it to Mahler's early Piano Quintet, the overall sound is extremely similar.

I'm amazed at how certain works like this and The Song of Sorrow can go unlistened to- or even, unheard of, by people who collect 50 recordings of the same symphony. The only reason I'm even aware of the Symphonic Prelude is completely by mistake! I used to go to this one website, and found it here:

http://www.classicalarchives.com/composer/2937.html#music

wondering if it was even written by him. Then, I read some article about it on here a long time ago and find out it really was his. And now, finally, I hear a non-MIDI  recording. 

Greg, have you heard the M5 piano rolls that were recorded by the composer himself? Those are priceless, IMO (not to say I like his own interpretations, but still).

[greg]

Greg, have you heard the M5 piano rolls that were recorded by the composer himself? Those are priceless, IMO (not to say I like his own interpretations, but still).

Yep, at first I found them on youtube, but then got the CD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KVd7NToZiaw

I really don't like the interpretation, though. It doesn't breathe, and there's too many notes added which don't really do anything. The piano doesn't suit his music too well.

[imperfection]

Yep, at first I found them on youtube, but then got the CD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KVd7NToZiaw

I really don't like the interpretation, though. It doesn't breathe, and there's too many notes added which don't really do anything. The piano doesn't suit his music too well.

I agree. While the piano is a versatile instrument, I think Mahler's scores are much too sophisticated (oh no, I just said the S word) for the piano. The variety of tone colors and complex (oh my, now the C word) orchestration can't really be brought out that well with 88 tiny hammers. Full orchestra is the way to go 

[greg]

There's worse S and C words out there in the world. 

[Jay F]

I just can't stop listening to this M7.

[Senta]

This 7th comes up frequently around here it seems! 

You know this was the first 7th I actually ever heard, when it came out a year or two ago it was played on the radio on a New Release show and I was spellbound by it! I have a several other recordings now but I still really like this one a lot. The playing is awesome and there is so much detail in the recording.

I also put up video of them playing it at The Proms - there are a few oopsies here and there but as a whole it is quite a performance.

Here is the opening of their stellar last mvmt - the other links can be found to the right of the vids in YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/v/UilOAx6dQZo&fmt=18

[Jay F]

This 7th comes up frequently around here it seems! 

You know this was the first 7th I actually ever heard, when it came out a year or two ago it was played on the radio on a New Release show and I was spellbound by it! I have a several other recordings now but I still really like this one a lot. The playing is awesome and there is so much detail in the recording.

New copies are available quite cheaply ($9.43) on Amazon Marketplace right now. Well worth it, IMO, even if you don't have an SACD player. The redbook layer comes through just fine.

[Sergeant Rock]

wondering if it was even written by him....

I'm wondering too. La Grange doesn't mention it, and it isn't included in his list of Mahler works. Gramophone says (reviewing the Järvi recording):

The Symphonisches Praeludium has a couple of distinctly Mahlerian moments, and its Bachian preoccupations might be thought to imply a link with the mature composer. Refreshingly, Peter Franklin's notes make no great claims for its authenticity. (Albrecht Gursching's scoring seems rather thick.)

What do you know about it, Greg? Who said it's authentic? In any case, thanks for the youtube link. An interesting listen.

Sarge

[Cato]

It is being played in Helsinki on April 23rd:

http://www.sinfoniaorkesterit.fi/en/index.php?trg=calendar&q=Helsingin%20kaupunginorkesteri

I will soon post a translation of some information about the work, but need some time.

[Cato]

From the Sikorski Music Publishing Company

"In the catalogs of the Sikorski Music Publishing Company is the "Symphonic Prelude" by Gustav Mahler: the story of its creation and rediscovery is noteworthy.  Mahler wrote this work in 1876 in his first year of study in Vienna.  As the editor Albrecht Gürsching relates: 'The work is a grandiose test of talent, oriented toward Bruckner, of the 16-year old Mahler.  It is on sketch-paper notated by a strange hand (Heinrich Tschuppig,  student comrade of Mahler).  Because the piece has survived the past century after it was once torn up (by Mahler??), the reconstruction involved some genuine detective work.  The glued pieces, made even less clear through an inadequate photocopy, let some idea of the composer's intentions get through in rough sections.  Moreover, the copy of this very bulky score (in part at least) was constantly squeezed into two parts (for 2 pianos?)  Therefore, before the actual score there (must have) existed an even more divided sketch, in which implied tones and the contrapuntal voice-leading were determined.  The actual score arose in a comparison with Bruckner's Third Symphony and Mahler's early compositions.' "

http://www.sikorski.de/de/frameloader.html?frame=http%3A//www.sikorski.de/articles/article601.html

The notes from CHANDOS with the Järvi recording are less sure: they cannot be copied, but in summary they say that the work, discovered in Viennese archives in the 1970's, could be a work by Bruckner and copied by his student and Mahler-comrade Rudolf Krzyanowski.  "Structural peculiarities" led musicologists to think it could be a lost student work of Mahler's, but the notes admit the mystery could never be solved. Mahler "must have identified" with it, even if he "did not compose it himself." 

Hans Rott        is also mentioned:

http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%209207.pdf

[Lilas Pastia]

The Symphonic Prelude can be dowloaded on John Berky's site (it was thought at first to be by Bruckner), but it seems to have disappeared. It's a short but interesting work. I have a file with Lawrence Foster conducting the Berlin RSO (1981). Did anyone upload that ? If not, and if I can figure out how to do it, I'll post it here.

[greg]

What do you know about it, Greg? Who said it's authentic? In any case, thanks for the youtube link. An interesting listen.

Sarge

Well, "Gustav" posted a pdf about it a long time ago. I saved it to my computer, but just tried looking for it, and I think I deleted it.

From the Sikorski Music Publishing Company

"In the catalogs of the Sikorski Music Publishing Company is the "Symphonic Prelude" by Gustav Mahler: the story of its creation and rediscovery is noteworthy.  Mahler wrote this work in 1876 in his first year of study in Vienna.  As the editor Albrecht Gürsching relates: 'The work is a grandiose test of talent, oriented toward Bruckner, of the 16-year old Mahler.  It is on sketch-paper notated by a strange hand (Heinrich Tschuppig,  student comrade of Mahler).  Because the piece has survived the past century after it was once torn up (by Mahler??), the reconstruction involved some genuine detective work.  The glued pieces, made even less clear through an inadequate photocopy, let some idea of the composer's intentions get through in rough sections.  Moreover, the copy of this very bulky score (in part at least) was constantly squeezed into two parts (for 2 pianos?)  Therefore, before the actual score there (must have) existed an even more divided sketch, in which implied tones and the contrapuntal voice-leading were determined.  The actual score arose in a comparison with Bruckner's Third Symphony and Mahler's early compositions.' "

http://www.sikorski.de/de/frameloader.html?frame=http%3A//www.sikorski.de/articles/article601.html

The notes from CHANDOS with the Järvi recording are less sure: they cannot be copied, but in summary they say that the work, discovered in Viennese archives in the 1970's, could be a work by Bruckner and copied by his student and Mahler-comrade Rudolf Krzyanowski.  "Structural peculiarities" led musicologists to think it could be a lost student work of Mahler's, but the notes admit the mystery could never be solved. Mahler "must have identified" with it, even if he "did not compose it himself." 

Hans Rott        is also mentioned:

http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%209207.pdf

Can't they tell a difference between the handwriting?

[Sergeant Rock]

Cato, Lilas, thanks for the additional info.

Sarge