Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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Sergeant Rock

#720
Quote from: G Forever on February 22, 2009, 06:03:22 AM
Well, "Gustav" posted a pdf about it a long time ago. I saved it to my computer, but just tried looking for it, and I think I deleted it.

This might be the pdf you're talking about. Found it on Berky's discography:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf

Edit: Or maybe it isn't. I just read it. It makes a case for Bruckner composing the piece.


Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Cato

Quote from: G Forever on February 22, 2009, 06:03:22 AM

Can't they tell a difference between the handwriting?

Yes, and the two candidates are Krzyanowski and Tschuppig, according to the above sources.  It seems a little premature to claim the work is by Mahler, since, as the CHANDOS notes indicate, the mystery of who composed it "may never be solved."

And yet CHANDOS sells the work on a Mahler Sixth CD, and the work is scheduled for performances at concerts with Mahler's name.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2009, 07:11:44 AM
And yet CHANDOS sells the work on a Mahler Sixth CD, and the work is scheduled for performances at concerts with Mahler's name.

The name Mahler sells better than Bruckner  ;)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Jay F

I started watching DEATH IN VENICE last night. Of course I'm familiar with the fact that the M5, M3, and M4 all figure in the movie, but I'd not seen it since discovering Mahler in 1988. I was confused a little at first by the flashbacks. I thought maybe the character was actually Mahler, but no, he was Gustav Aschenbach. But there was the beautiful wife, the daughter, the music, the name Gustav. I was looking all over for the composing shed. I haven't finished it, as I grew tired, but I will watch the rest today. I wasn't able to find the closed captioning at first, so I missed some story points, I think. I found it in time to watch as the man was slopping disinfectant around.

I didn't think Tadzio was all that beautiful. I thought his "boyfriend" (the guy who kept putting his arm around Tadzio) was a lot better looking. The mens' hair, at least Tadzio's and Aschenbach's, was very "of the moment"--the moment it was shot, not the moment the story took place. My hair in 1971 looked just like Tadzio's, only dark brown. And Aschenbach looked a lot like a friend I hadn't met yet when I saw the movie for the first time in 1971.

If this movie were made today, I suspect Aschenbach's advances and stares would have ended up with him in bed with Tadzio, and it would have had an entirely different outcome. I doubt the movie *would* get made today, given the pedophilia-infused storyline, as it hardly makes sense according to today's sensibilities and storytelling to have the two characters so close, and so much within each other's orbit, without their landing in bed together (or at least the old man's trying to bed the boy and being rejected).

I'm saddened to think that the music made no impression on me when I saw the movie for the first time (1971). I could have been listening to Mahler that much longer.


Haffner

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2009, 07:50:09 AM
The name Mahler sells better than Bruckner  ;)

Sarge


Which, for me at least, is kind of strange. Although Bruckner had his share of repetitious moments/collection of moments, I seem to be more willing to, say, take a journey through a complete set of his symphonies before Mahler. I mean, both composers are Heavy Metal, but Bruckner is EXTREME-APOCALYPSE-IS-NIGH-SO-SAVE-YO'-BEHIND-Metal.

But then, maybe that's why he doesn't sell as well as Mahler.

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 22, 2009, 07:51:04 AM
I started watching DEATH IN VENICE last night. Of course I'm familiar with the fact that the M5, M3, and M4 all figure in the movie, but I'd not seen it since discovering Mahler in 1988. I was confused a little at first by the flashbacks. I thought maybe the character was actually Mahler, but no, he was Gustav Aschenbach. But there was the beautiful wife, the daughter, the music, the name Gustav. I was looking all over for the composing shed. I haven't finished it, as I grew tired, but I will watch the rest today. I wasn't able to find the closed captioning at first, so I missed some story points, I think. I found it in time to watch as the man was slopping disinfectant around.

I didn't think Tadzio was all that beautiful. I thought his "boyfriend" (the guy who kept putting his arm around Tadzio) was a lot better looking. The mens' hair, at least Tadzio's and Aschenbach's, was very "of the moment"--the moment it was shot, not the moment the story took place. My hair in 1971 looked just like Tadzio's, only dark brown. And Aschenbach looked a lot like a friend I hadn't met yet when I saw the movie for the first time in 1971.

If this movie were made today, I suspect Aschenbach's advances and stares would have ended up with him in bed with Tadzio, and it would have had an entirely different outcome. I doubt the movie *would* get made today, given the pedophilia-infused storyline, as it hardly makes sense according to today's sensibilities and storytelling to have the two characters so close, and so much within each other's orbit, without their landing in bed together (or at least the old man's trying to bed the boy and being rejected).

I'm saddened to think that the music made no impression on me when I saw the movie for the first time (1971). I could have been listening to Mahler that much longer.



Mann's Death in Venice's  homoerotic subtext - well, main subject, in this instance - would certainly be considered X rated today considering it features an obviously underage youth. In Mann's days the whole thing was still closely connected with the greek antiquity concepts of erastes (lover) and his eromenos (loved one). It didn't have 'bedding the boy' as its goal. Indeed, the Greeks clearly distinguished between the platonic, mentor-like relationship and the more sensual attentions that were reserved for the older boys. Pedophilia as we know it today was frowned upon in ancient Greece. Tadzio in Death in Venice is clearly the eromenos of the beach guard (his erastes). Aschenbach's behaviour (his mental torment and useless tailing of the boy) merely depict his realization that an essential aspect of his being had laid closeted within him until that moment. IMO it's more to do with that concept than the actual object of his attentions. In that sense Tadzio was a mere abstraction. It's interesting to note that at the same period Visconti was engaged in precisely that kind of relation with the young Helmut Berger. Years after Viscontis' death, Berger still claimed the older man to be his 'husband'.

Jay F

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 22, 2009, 02:18:16 PM
Mann's Death in Venice's  homoerotic subtext - well, main subject, in this instance - would certainly be considered X rated today considering it features an obviously underage youth. In Mann's days the whole thing was still closely connected with the greek antiquity concepts of erastes (lover) and his eromenos (loved one). It didn't have 'bedding the boy' as its goal. Indeed, the Greeks clearly distinguished between the platonic, mentor-like relationship and the more sensual attentions that were reserved for the older boys. Pedophilia as we know it today was frowned upon in ancient Greece. Tadzio in Death in Venice is clearly the eromenos of the beach guard (his erastes). Aschenbach's behaviour (his mental torment and useless tailing of the boy) merely depict his realization that an essential aspect of his being had laid closeted within him until that moment. IMO it's more to do with that concept than the actual object of his attentions. In that sense Tadzio was a mere abstraction. It's interesting to note that at the same period Visconti was engaged in precisely that kind of relation with the young Helmut Berger. Years after Viscontis' death, Berger still claimed the older man to be his 'husband'.
Thanks for the explication. I finished watching it tonight, and I don't know what to make of it. I liked it more in 1971, somehow. I loved the music, of course, but found it confusing that the writer from the book had been turned into some kind of stand-in for Mahler, with the music, and the booing, and the wife and the daughter (and didn't she die?). I didn't understand this aspect at all 38 years ago.

I found the ending hideous. I almost wish I hadn't watched it. I don't want its images to stick in my head when I listen to the music from now on. And again, I still can't figure out why I didn't like the music enough in 1971 to buy a copy. Do you know whose versions they used?

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 22, 2009, 07:24:04 PM
I found the ending hideous. I almost wish I hadn't watched it. I don't want its images to stick in my head when I listen to the music from now on. And again, I still can't figure out why I didn't like the music enough in 1971 to buy a copy. Do you know whose versions they used?

I believe the music was recorded specifically for the soundtrack: Franco Mannino (conductor), L'Orchestra dell'Academia Di Santa Cecilia.

I've never seen the film, and never will. I don't want Mahler's music associated, in my mind, with the obsession and pursuit of boys, no matter how classically pure or metaphorical the meaning.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 06:11:46 AM
I believe the music was recorded specifically for the soundtrack: Franco Mannino (conductor), L'Orchestra dell'Academia Di Santa Cecilia.

I've never seen the film, and never will. I don't want Mahler's music associated, in my mind, with the obsession and pursuit of boys, no matter how classically pure or metaphorical the meaning.

Well, I did see the film more than 25 years ago, but I have never ever associated the Adagietto with Visconti and a tragic infatuation with a beautiful boy. Call it compartmentalization...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Jezetha on February 23, 2009, 07:24:47 AM
Well, I did see the film more than 25 years ago, but I have never ever associated the Adagietto with Visconti and a tragic infatuation with a beautiful boy. Call it compartmentalization...

I'm not sure I could do that. For example, ever since seeing Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors I've not been able to hear the Schubert that accompanies the murder scene without that scene flashing into my head. It's ruined the music for me.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 07:31:13 AM
I'm not sure I could do that. For example, ever since seeing Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors I've not been able to hear the Schubert that accompanies the murder scene without that scene flashing into my head. It's ruined the music for me.

Sarge

Talking of unwanted associations... I have a confession to make and if you read what I write I might have ruined another great musical moment for you... When I hear that final upward scale of Brian's Sixteenth I am always reminded of a similar moment at the end of the signature tune of The Muppets (This is what we call the Muppet SHOW!)  :o
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

John Copeland

 ;D

Anyone got this, and if so, what's it like?  I've got his [Haitink doing Mahler] 2nd and one of the best 7ths I've heard, and it is somewhat daft of me to consider YET ANOTHER Mahler collection - but what I have from Haitink is outstanding, and maybe he should be considered as a great Mahler interpreter.
However, I need to hear more, and if this collection is as good as the two symphonies I already have, I'll be raving about it for weeks.

But how does it compare say, to the passion of Bernstein, the drive of Tennstedt or the master musicianship of Neumann and the CPO?

Que

Quote from: John on February 23, 2009, 08:51:37 AM
;D

Anyone got this, and if so, what's it like?  I've got his [Haitink doing Mahler] 2nd and one of the best 7ths I've heard, and it is somewhat daft of me to consider YET ANOTHER Mahler collection - but what I have from Haitink is outstanding, and maybe he should be considered as a great Mahler interpreter.
However, I need to hear more, and if this collection is as good as the two symphonies I already have, I'll be raving about it for weeks.

Best are 2, 3 and... 7. :)

Q

Jay F

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 07:31:13 AM
I'm not sure I could do that. For example, ever since seeing Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors I've not been able to hear the Schubert that accompanies the murder scene without that scene flashing into my head. It's ruined the music for me.

Sarge
I have never liked videos. I don't like to have visuals forced upon me that I may never be able to forget. My memory is VERY susceptible that way.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Que on February 23, 2009, 09:29:38 AM
Best are 2, 3 and... 7. :)

There's nothing wrong with 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 either. But perhaps I'm biased - these performances were the first Mahler I collected 30 years ago, starting with the Sixth. I have never compared them, though. They are too much a part of what I take Mahler to be...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Jezetha on February 23, 2009, 07:52:35 AM
When I hear that final upward scale of Brian's Sixteenth I am always reminded of a similar moment at the end of the signature tune of The Muppets (This is what we call the Muppet SHOW!)  :o

Damn you, Johan!!!

;D :D ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

bhodges

Quote from: John on February 23, 2009, 08:51:37 AM
;D

Anyone got this, and if so, what's it like?  I've got his [Haitink doing Mahler] 2nd and one of the best 7ths I've heard, and it is somewhat daft of me to consider YET ANOTHER Mahler collection - but what I have from Haitink is outstanding, and maybe he should be considered as a great Mahler interpreter.
However, I need to hear more, and if this collection is as good as the two symphonies I already have, I'll be raving about it for weeks.

But how does it compare say, to the passion of Bernstein, the drive of Tennstedt or the master musicianship of Neumann and the CPO?

I don't have this box, but I do have many of the individual performances and like them very, very much.  (I even like his Eighth, which was the first version of the piece I ever heard.)  IMHO Haitink is absolutely a great Mahler interpreter.  You might also want to look around for this set of live Mahler performances Haitink recorded on Christmas Day matinees.  Here are Tony Duggan's comments on MusicWeb.  The set has every symphony except Nos. 6 and 8, and if you like live recordings, these are quite excellent.

--Bruce

Sergeant Rock

#737
Quote from: John on February 23, 2009, 08:51:37 AM
But how does it compare say, to the passion of Bernstein, the drive of Tennstedt or the master musicianship of Neumann and the CPO?

Closest to Neumann...solild, middle-of-the-road readings with no histrionics or exaggerated tempi in either direction. Mahler and the Concertgebouw (the best Mahler band imo) are the stars. Like Johan, Haitink was my introduction to many of the symphonies (2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 9) and I still own those wonderful Philips LP boxes. I don't have many on CD (I've come to prefer Chailly overall with this orchestra) but I think 3 and 9 should be in every collection. In 40+ years attending concerts, Haitink leading the Clevelanders in the Ninth was the best, and the most moving experience I've ever had in the concert hall...which makes me seriously consider that Christmas box that Bruce mentions.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Drasko

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 12:15:04 PM
....I think 3 and 9 should be in every collection.

Second on the 9th, still one of the finest around.

Que

Quote from: Drasko on February 23, 2009, 12:23:32 PM
Second on the 9th, still one of the finest around.

I admit: I should have mentioned Haitink's 9th as well - Mea Culpa! :)

Q