Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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greg

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2009, 06:43:36 AM
This might be the pdf you're talking about. Found it on Berky's discography:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf

Edit: Or maybe it isn't. I just read it. It makes a case for Bruckner composing the piece.


Sarge
I don't think it is, because the article I read was longer and had musical examples.

greg

Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 22, 2009, 07:51:04 AM
I started watching DEATH IN VENICE last night. Of course I'm familiar with the fact that the M5, M3, and M4 all figure in the movie, but I'd not seen it since discovering Mahler in 1988. I was confused a little at first by the flashbacks. I thought maybe the character was actually Mahler, but no, he was Gustav Aschenbach. But there was the beautiful wife, the daughter, the music, the name Gustav. I was looking all over for the composing shed. I haven't finished it, as I grew tired, but I will watch the rest today. I wasn't able to find the closed captioning at first, so I missed some story points, I think. I found it in time to watch as the man was slopping disinfectant around.

I didn't think Tadzio was all that beautiful. I thought his "boyfriend" (the guy who kept putting his arm around Tadzio) was a lot better looking. The mens' hair, at least Tadzio's and Aschenbach's, was very "of the moment"--the moment it was shot, not the moment the story took place. My hair in 1971 looked just like Tadzio's, only dark brown. And Aschenbach looked a lot like a friend I hadn't met yet when I saw the movie for the first time in 1971.

If this movie were made today, I suspect Aschenbach's advances and stares would have ended up with him in bed with Tadzio, and it would have had an entirely different outcome. I doubt the movie *would* get made today, given the pedophilia-infused storyline, as it hardly makes sense according to today's sensibilities and storytelling to have the two characters so close, and so much within each other's orbit, without their landing in bed together (or at least the old man's trying to bed the boy and being rejected).

I'm saddened to think that the music made no impression on me when I saw the movie for the first time (1971). I could have been listening to Mahler that much longer.


I heard about that movie- sounds completely messed up. They could put Mahler in better places- I wish they could put him in a soundtrack for a new Final Fantasy game (Bruckner, Brahms and Shostakovich, too) (the 4 great symphonists). That would be the most epic soundtrack for anything ever realized.

It could start off with a scene of the protagonist awakening in a field to the beginning of Mahler's 1st, and then end with the closing notes of the 9th to him fading off into space (similar to a scene which actually did happen in one of them). They could have Shostakovich string quartets for some of the villages, Bruckner's 6th for the airship music, Brahms' 2nd for forest music, and mainly use Mahler for very long cut scenes.

Man, now I won't be able to get to sleep having thought of this... a game like that would be like a dream come true- combining all of that into one thing. Excuse me while I make a phone call...

Lilas Pastia

Haitink's Concertgebouw studio performances of 1, 4 and 7 are from two vintages, apart from one another by about 10 years. If I'm not mistaken the Philips set contains 1 version 2, 4 and 7 versions 1. IMO they should have retained 4 and 7 from the later, late seventies recordings. There is only one studio performance each of 2, 3, and 5-9. IMO they are among the very best and showcase the damned epithet 'musical' as no others do. Apart from a tepid orchestral conclusion to 2 (Resurrection), I would feel safe to recommend 2, 3, 5, 7 and 9 unreservedly. The first 7th is light and transparent, the second (not included in the set) more ruminative in pacing, more somber yet glowing in textures, but lacking the zest and fantasy of the earlier version - take your pick. No 6 is unsettled, unnervingly light of texture and unimposing, whereas 1 and 8 are gloriously apollinian - meaning, they are gorgeously light and classical in feeling, consciously eschewing any effusiveness or theatricality. Think of the mendelssohnian heritage (not just the symphonies, but the Midsummer Night or Walpurgisnacht music).

In short, this set presents a sharply defined point of view, and it highlights both the excellence of the playing and an unmistakable musical tradition. I'm quite sure Mahler would have been proud.

Jay F

#743
Do these contain the same version of Haitink's RCO M7?


imperfection

Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 25, 2009, 05:24:36 AM
Do these contain the same version of Haitink's RCO M7?



Yes.

Have you also checked out the BPO 7th on DVD? It is coupled with the 4th and I've heard very good things about it. I've only seen the 3rd in the same series and the video/sound quality is absolutely great (not to mention to top-notch performance).

Que

Quote from: imperfection on February 26, 2009, 10:07:17 PM
Yes.

If I read Lilas' post correctly, according to him they actually are different. Could someone check? :)

I have the single isue on the left and it's recorded in december 1982.

Q

J.Z. Herrenberg

AFAIK the Haitink box contains the performances from the 60s and 70s. That rules out the 1982 7th (which I prefer to the earlier one, too).
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Que

Quote from: Jezetha on February 27, 2009, 01:17:52 AM
AFAIK the Haitink box contains the performances from the 60s and 70s. That rules out the 1982 7th (which I prefer to the earlier one, too).

Thanks! :)

And for the 4th? I myself prefer the 1st recording with Elly Ameling ('67) instead of the 2nd with Roberta Alexander. I also got the much lauded new recording with Christine Schäfer... but despite all the accolades for that recording I still prefer the one with Ameling. ::)

Q

Drasko

According to Decca site Haitink box contains first versions of all three symphonies in question [bolded].

1st
BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. September 18 & 20, 1962 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. May 18 to 20, 1972 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

4th
BERNARD HAITINK, Elly Ameling, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. February 20 & 22, 1967 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

BERNARD HAITINK, Roberta Alexander, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. October 3 & 4, 1983 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

7th

BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. December 19 & 22, 1969 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)


BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. December 6 to 13, 1982 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

Jay F

#749
Quote from: imperfection on February 26, 2009, 10:07:17 PM
Yes.

Have you also checked out the BPO 7th on DVD? It is coupled with the 4th and I've heard very good things about it. I've only seen the 3rd in the same series and the video/sound quality is absolutely great (not to mention to top-notch performance).
Actually, no. I don't think I've ever heard any of Haitink's Mahler. Or very much else by Haitink, for that matter. When I first started listening to classical, I bought a couple of Penguin Guides, and they weren't particularly kind to Haitink.

And thanks, everyone, for the clarification.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 27, 2009, 07:08:12 AM
When I first started listening to classical, I bought a couple of Penguin Guides, and they weren't particularly kind to Haitink.

While not wildly enthusiastic about the entire cycle, the authors have, over the years, consistently singled out 3, 7, and 9  for special praise (I just checked the '75 and '96 editions). Those are the performances that have gotten the most praise in this forum too. They are definitely worth hearing, and owning.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Jay F

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2009, 08:46:49 AM
While not wildly enthusiastic about the entire cycle, the authors have, over the years, consistently singled out 3, 7, and 9  for special praise (I just checked the '75 and '96 editions). Those are the performances that have gotten the most praise in this forum too. They are definitely worth hearing, and owning.

Sarge
Thanks. I have 9. I'll look for 3 and 7.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2009, 08:46:49 AM
While not wildly enthusiastic about the entire cycle, the authors have, over the years, consistently singled out 3, 7, and 9  for special praise

Coincidentally, I just recently picked up the Haitink/Con'bouw 3rd (reissued as a Philips "Original" with Das klagende Lied) and I can testify that it's a wonderful performance. No detail in particular jumps out at me; it's just really well done by all concerned, all the way through.

Also crying out for mention - Haitink's great recording of Das Lied von der Erde with Baker and King.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

J.Z. Herrenberg

#753
Quote from: Que on February 27, 2009, 01:36:32 AM
Thanks! :)

And for the 4th? I myself prefer the 1st recording with Elly Ameling ('67) instead of the 2nd with Roberta Alexander. I also got the much lauded new recording with Christine Schäfer... but despite all the accolades for that recording I still prefer the one with Ameling. ::)

Q

Oh yes - Elly Ameling is unforgettable!

Quote from: Spitvalve on February 27, 2009, 10:52:38 AM
Coincidentally, I just recently picked up the Haitink/Con'bouw 3rd (reissued as a Philips "Original" with Das klagende Lied) and I can testify that it's a wonderful performance. No detail in particular jumps out at me; it's just really well done by all concerned, all the way through.

Also crying out for mention - Haitink's great recording of Das Lied von der Erde with Baker and King.

Certainly for Janet Baker and the Concertgebouw itself.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: Drasko on February 27, 2009, 01:50:49 AM
According to Decca site Haitink box contains first versions of all three symphonies in question [bolded].

1st
BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. September 18 & 20, 1962 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. May 18 to 20, 1972 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

4th
BERNARD HAITINK, Elly Ameling, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. February 20 & 22, 1967 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

BERNARD HAITINK, Roberta Alexander, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. October 3 & 4, 1983 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

7th

BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. December 19 & 22, 1969 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)


BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. December 6 to 13, 1982 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

The decision to choose the inferior 1962 First symphony for inclusion in the complete set is a strange one. The series was completed around 1972 (symphony 8 IIRC), and the new version of 1 was recorded at the same time. Logically Philips should have kept it instead of going back to the much tamer earlier effort.

imperfection

I'm sorry I made a mistake. The Haitink performances are different indeed.

greg

found this:

http://classiclibrary.blogspot.com/2009/03/gustav-mahler-symhopny-no9-in-d-sir.html

a scanned article from Gramophone magazine about Rattle and him conducting the 9th.

Jay F

Quote from: G Forever on March 04, 2009, 02:13:38 PM
found this:

http://classiclibrary.blogspot.com/2009/03/gustav-mahler-symhopny-no9-in-d-sir.html

a scanned article from Gramophone magazine about Rattle and him conducting the 9th.
Oh, you've made me go shopping. What am I going to do?

ChamberNut

OK........is it wrong for me to absolutely love Mahler's "complete" 10th?  :-[

I just heard it for the first time in this completed version, and I found it incredible!  Stunning.....

DavidRoss

Quote from: KammerNuss on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
OK........is it wrong for me to absolutely love Mahler's "complete" 10th?  :-[

I just heard it for the first time in this completed version, and I found it incredible!  Stunning.....
Whose completion?  I have Cooke's performed by Rattie/BP and Chailly/RCO, and Barshai conducting his own with the German Youth Philharmonic, and prefer the last.

I think you are right to love it.  When I first heard it, I was amazed by the spiritual repose old Gus seems to have found so late in life after so much anguished striving.  Good on you, mate!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher