Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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Jay F

Quote from: Renfield on March 29, 2009, 06:50:37 PM
He was a Londoner, but yes, the recording is very good. Alongside the Barbirolli and the DG Bernstein, I'd definitely recommend the Karajan (recently discussed in the Karajan Legacy thread); as well as any Mitropoulos version you can get your hands on, if you don't mind historical sound.

And "for something completely different", have a look at the Boulez.
My favorite M6 is Bernstein's on CBS. I couldn't listen to anything else for years. I've heard the others mentioned, and the only one I really like is Karajan's.

Diletante

Gee, thanks, guys. I've never heard anything directed by Barbirolli, so this might be a good chance to try him.

I'm still pretty much ignorant as far as conductors go, so I really appreciate the advice. I just know that I've liked every Bernstein interpretation I've heard. I have DG videos of him with the Wiener Philarmoniker conducting symphonies 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.
Orgullosamente diletante.

Renfield

#782
Quote from: nicht schleppend on March 29, 2009, 07:05:00 PM
My favorite M6 is Bernstein's on CBS. I couldn't listen to anything else for years. I've heard the others mentioned, and the only one I really like is Karajan's.

From what I remember of it, the CBS Bernstein is indeed very good - I'd just (personally) consider it superseded by the DG. :)

Although I can see how you might not particularly appreciate the expansiveness of the VPO account.


Edit: And no worries, tanuki. Do try Barbirolli, he was an exceptional conductor; more so, make sure to try his Mahler 5th, as well!

imperfection

Quote from: Renfield on March 29, 2009, 07:17:33 PM
From what I remember of it, the CBS Bernstein is indeed very good - I'd just (personally) consider it superseded by the DG. :)

Although I can see how you might not particularly appreciate the expansiveness of the VPO account.


Edit: And no worries, tanuki. Do try Barbirolli, he was an exceptional conductor; more so, make sure to try his Mahler 5th, as well!

Then the 9th.


imperfection

I was just listening to Sinopoli's 6th, what an exquisite performance. All instruments are heard, the sound of the orchestra is extremely transparent and clear yet powerful enough to engulf the audience in a tight grip until the epic finale is over. Interpretation wise, bits of unique insight here and there, perhaps the first movement is a bit flaccid if one is accustomed to Barbirolli/Solti/Bernstein, but the playing of the PO is nothing to sneeze at; their blend is gorgeous. Sinopoli uses extreme rubato to create a emotional, but deeply thought over, analyzed reading. The Andante Moderato is almost 20 minutes long! The recorded sound couldn't have been bettered, you can leave your volume knobs at 30% or lower and still hear all the orchestral sound effects and colorful instrumental timbres Mahler wrote in the complex score.

If you have any doubts about the idiosyncratic interpretations of the conductor, at least get this set for the amazing orchestral sound produced by the PO here. It is almost as unique and distinctive as Karajan's BPO, at that's saying something. Renfield, you should get it ASAP so we can discuss it  :). Right now, not a lot of members have this cycle and I'm enjoying this wonderful set all alone... :'(

Renfield

Well, ASAP might take a while, as I have quite a number of things I would rather spend ca. £80 on, than yet another Mahler cycle, and before I've gone through Maazel's, which is still practically in shrink-wrap! But I certainly am interested, so it's probably coming sooner or later. :)

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: Renfield on March 30, 2009, 08:14:04 PM
Well, ASAP might take a while, as I have quite a number of things I would rather spend ca. £80 on, than yet another Mahler cycle, and before I've gone through Maazel's, which is still practically in shrink-wrap! But I certainly am interested, so it's probably coming sooner or later. :)

Nothing to cream your pants about IMO, but a very interesting cycle for peripheral reasons. A more typically "mahlerian" cycle is probably Bertini's, and a more straightforwardly musical one would have Haitink leading the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra. Maazel's Mahler has always reminded me of some stuff like Bernstein's DG remakes of Copland, Harris, Schumann or Brahms: gorgeous stuff from someone who had veered from bracing, exciting music making to something more personal, more reflective - inward vs outward-looking.

greg

I have to ask- anyone out there who thinks Mahler 8 is like a drone? Sure, I enjoy it for a few minutes at a time- it's one of the most ecstatic pieces ever written. The problem for me is lack of variation in mood- there's hardly a second which doesn't feel like it's heading towards some joyous apocalyptic orgasm. This is great, but at least for me, it's just too much.

Right now, I've been digging into both Bernstein's and Chailly's sets for the first time. I've heard all of Bernstein and I've heard Chailly's 5th a while ago and thought it was nearly perfect, and have listened to his 10th a few days ago and thought it was as close to perfect as you can get. Seriously, when I listened, I thought I was going to die, it was that good. In contrast to Bernstein's recording of the Adagio, he takes it slower and when that F# major chord opens up, you hear strings, not winds/brass. In my opinion, that's how it should sound! Plus, with Bernstein, it sounds like the cellos are screaming in place of the more important lines, which just sounds weird. Maybe it's a first recording bias, since I'm used to hearing Wigglesworth...

I do like some Bernstein, though. I listened to his Resurrection a few years ago and hated it, but this time I thought it sounded good- especially the second movement, which kind of hesitates to play itself, which I think is good to do after that wild opening movement. All the energy is gone and the last thing I want to hear is something that sounds like a folk song- but in this version, it just makes sense. His 9th is very, very good, but I'm not sure his flavor conforms to my palette, especially with the vibrato in the trumpet- it reminds me too much of jazz, and can sound cheesy to me if I pay too much attention to it.

I can't wait to finish listening to Chailly, I have a feeling he might end up being one of my favorite conductors, if not my favorite...

Jay F

Quote from: Bahamut on April 16, 2009, 03:46:44 PM
I have to ask- anyone out there who thinks Mahler 8 is like a drone? Sure, I enjoy it for a few minutes at a time- it's one of the most ecstatic pieces ever written. The problem for me is lack of variation in mood- there's hardly a second which doesn't feel like it's heading towards some joyous apocalyptic orgasm. This is great, but at least for me, it's just too much.

Right now, I've been digging into both Bernstein's and Chailly's sets for the first time. I've heard all of Bernstein and I've heard Chailly's 5th a while ago and thought it was nearly perfect, and have listened to his 10th a few days ago and thought it was as close to perfect as you can get. Seriously, when I listened, I thought I was going to die, it was that good. In contrast to Bernstein's recording of the Adagio, he takes it slower and when that F# major chord opens up, you hear strings, not winds/brass. In my opinion, that's how it should sound! Plus, with Bernstein, it sounds like the cellos are screaming in place of the more important lines, which just sounds weird. Maybe it's a first recording bias, since I'm used to hearing Wigglesworth...

I do like some Bernstein, though. I listened to his Resurrection a few years ago and hated it, but this time I thought it sounded good- especially the second movement, which kind of hesitates to play itself, which I think is good to do after that wild opening movement. All the energy is gone and the last thing I want to hear is something that sounds like a folk song- but in this version, it just makes sense. His 9th is very, very good, but I'm not sure his flavor conforms to my palette, especially with the vibrato in the trumpet- it reminds me too much of jazz, and can sound cheesy to me if I pay too much attention to it.

I can't wait to finish listening to Chailly, I have a feeling he might end up being one of my favorite conductors, if not my favorite...

I have been listening to Chailly for the first time this year, and I share your opinion of his 5th. It's almost impossibly good. Same with his 8th. I could not stop listening to it on Sunday. I listen to it on Sundays a lot, the 8th, usually by Sinopoli or Bernstein (CBS). I used to listen to the 5th a lot on Saturday mornings; the 4th in winter; the 3rd in spring and summer; the 1st in the morning; 7 and 9 at night, anytime of year. 2, anytime of day or year. I think I burned out on the 6th, I've played it so much in the past.

greg

Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 16, 2009, 06:08:52 PM
I have been listening to Chailly for the first time this year, and I share your opinion of his 5th. It's almost impossibly good. Same with his 8th. I could not stop listening to it on Sunday. I listen to it on Sundays a lot, the 8th, usually by Sinopoli or Bernstein (CBS). I used to listen to the 5th a lot on Saturday mornings; the 4th in winter; the 3rd in spring and summer; the 1st in the morning; 7 and 9 at night, anytime of year. 2, anytime of day or year. I think I burned out on the 6th, I've played it so much in the past.
I think a lot of people think that about the Chailly 5th- when I asked about it, probably a couple thousand pages back on this thread, several people, including M Forever, said it was the best recording.

greg

Listened to Chailly 9 last night (outer movements). I think I like the very slow tempo at the beginning of the first movement. Generally, the quiet sections were well-played, but there are some serious balancing issues in this movement- including some moments were you can't even hear the main line. What I'd like to hear is a recording with a very slow tempo at the beginning that gets the balancing right (and has spark) to the louder moments during the development.

Renfield

Quote from: Bahamut on April 17, 2009, 07:31:37 AM
What I'd like to hear is a recording with a very slow tempo at the beginning that gets the balancing right (and has spark) to the louder moments during the development.

Which Bernstein have you heard? And have you heard Klemperer? :)


(Incidentally, I've been away for a while, and will likely be away for a little while more.

If anyone needs something, or I've promised him/her something that I've forgotten, or there's something I should be aware of, let me know!)

greg

Actually, for the 9th, what I listened to was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZhPE_XFY7I

I have the box set of Bernstein, so I'm just assuming this was the same as from the set. Maybe it's not?...
No, I haven't heard the Klemperer... is his performance what I described?

Brünnhilde forever

Right now I am thoroughly enjoying the ten disc collection of Mahler being conducted by Bernard Haitink. He is one of our outstanding, but sadly often neglected conductors - and he is a  contemporary, still very much alive maestro:


imperfection

I do like the Chailly M5 very much, especially for the jaw-dropping sound Decca gives us. The only reservation I have about the performance is the Adagietto -- perhaps I'm too used to Karajan's massive, extremely polished and drop-dead gorgeous rendition.

Renfield

Quote from: Bahamut on April 17, 2009, 08:06:26 PM
Actually, for the 9th, what I listened to was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZhPE_XFY7I

I have the box set of Bernstein, so I'm just assuming this was the same as from the set. Maybe it's not?...
No, I haven't heard the Klemperer... is his performance what I described?

Try Bernstein on DG, with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. There are innumerable complaints about how "slow" and "exaggerated" the performance is, but I still agree with the minority(?) who consider it a success; and (if I've understood correctly) it might be very close to what you want. :)


Klemperer (EMI) is one of my benchmark 9ths - and obviously not just mine!

It's measured, a 'reading of proportions', in the Klemperer style, but very effective, and hard to match in terms of balancing the work overall.

DavidRoss

Quote from: Renfield on April 18, 2009, 07:20:56 AM
Try Bernstein on DG, with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. There are innumerable complaints about how "slow" and "exaggerated" the performance is, but I still agree with the minority(?) who consider it a success; and (if I've understood correctly) it might be very close to what you want. :)
If it's a minority, then (as is often the case) the minority has it right--Lennie's RCO Nine is mighty fine.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Jay F

Quote from: Bahamut on April 17, 2009, 08:06:26 PM
Actually, for the 9th, what I listened to was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZhPE_XFY7I

I have the box set of Bernstein, so I'm just assuming this was the same as from the set. Maybe it's not?...
I believe it's the same, the one with the NYPO. It's still my favorite after all these years (21). I am one of those who find the last movement of his DG 9th too slow (though I like the slow 2nd on DG just fine).

greg

#799
Quote from: Renfield on April 18, 2009, 07:20:56 AM
Try Bernstein on DG, with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. There are innumerable complaints about how "slow" and "exaggerated" the performance is, but I still agree with the minority(?) who consider it a success; and (if I've understood correctly) it might be very close to what you want. :)


Klemperer (EMI) is one of my benchmark 9ths - and obviously not just mine!

It's measured, a 'reading of proportions', in the Klemperer style, but very effective, and hard to match in terms of balancing the work overall.

Excellent- thanks!  :) I'll have to catch that Klemperer.

Ok... i've searched youtube and this is supposedly the DG recording... it doesn't say anywhere on the page but has a cover of that recording on the 3rd video in the set. It sounds like the same tempo as the other, though- maybe it is?  ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjuWwc-H4IY&feature=PlayList&p=62AE77D835E93C9F&index=0&playnext=1

Also, what do you think of Karajan's recording? This is the one that I've based my observations on...

And... out of sheer curiosity, have you heard Bruno Walter?
phewww i'm done.... i won't bother you any more, I promise.  8)

(fingers crossed behind my back)