Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[DavidRoss]

But hey, I'm also one of those clowns who even consider Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen as a song of relief and redemption

Send in the clowns...they uusually have a better grasp of things that the dolts who take themselves too seriously. 

[Marc]

Send in the clowns...they uusually have a better grasp of things that the dolts who take themselves too seriously. 

Usually or sometimes .... ?
Anyway, no offense meant to the more gloomy Mahler lovers. And I won't argue about the final chords of the 6th.

But, being a member of this board and a Mahler lover, I thought: well, let's hear for something else about Number Four.

I once paid money for a Mahler 4 which was interpreted very dark, with slow tempi, and I felt utterly disappointed and empty afterwards. But of course there were others who loved it very much!
There's the objective art form called music for you!

EDIT: another thing.
To love or appreciate music, it's really not necessary to fully incorporate the 'orginal meaning' of the composer. I've been at too many lectures of poets, who were very happy with every other well-motivated explanation. It just proves the richness of language they used to say.
Let's celebrate the richness of music, then!

[Marc]

More so, the author, who was not a child, therefore the song's use was necessarily metaphorical in some fashion,  had preceded the 4th symphony with a number of works dealing with death, futility and hopelessness before the inevitable (look at the desperate cry, Bereite dich zu leben! in the 2nd symphony; [....]

Sorry for this late reaction, but to me there's nothing desperate about this bereite dich ....: it's a wake up call! With death your real life begins!

Mahler was deeply touched by the lyrics of Klopstock at Von Bulow's funeral, and rewrote them for his own use. Auferstehung has a terrifying beginning (first movement), but a glorious and positive ending, comparable to the final verses of the Stabat mater text. To me, although a bit too loud maybe , this final chorus is one of the most emotionally impressive comfort bringers I ever heard in music. Amen.

[Renfield]

Mahler inserted a note in the first edition directing that "The Heavenly Life" should be sung "with a childlike, cheerful expression, entirely without parody."  Make of that what you will.

Now that is evidence I won't contest.

Perhaps then a) certain performances of the symphony often grant it a subtext it was not intended to have, or b) I myself am straight-jacketing what seems to genuinely be an isolated case into a paradigm it does not belong to. Or a little of both.

Of course, it's fundamentally nothing but music, just organized sounds with no intrinsic "meaning," only that which we bring to it.

As is this sentence, though you can still read it and be informed as to my communicative intent by virtue of knowing a number of conventions on the use of symbols to represent sounds, and sounds to represent meaning.

Only of course, for music, we lack a common convention. I do see your point; which is why I put the 'Mahler in my head' proviso in the post above. From the moment we decode the sequence of sounds into something we can process, it is inevitably tainted by meaning.

To love or appreciate music, it's really not necessary to fully incorporate the 'orginal meaning' of the composer. I've been at too many lectures of poets, who were very happy with every other well-motivated explanation. It just proves the richness of language they used to say.
Let's celebrate the richness of music, then!

Absolutely, and hence why I responded to your opinion with my own, offering the suggestion that I think it might reflect Mahler's intention based on prior evidence as an explanation of why I've formed it (the opinion), rather than why you need accept it.

If I have been abrasive in the manner I've framed my views, that was not at all my intent.

I'm happy with my view of Mahler. But I'm happier yet with the possibility that Mahler was a more complex man than I can represent in any minimalist reduction of him with total accuracy; which would hold true for any real person.

Sorry for this late reaction, but to me there's nothing desperate about this bereite dich ....: it's a wake up call! With death your real life begins!

Mahler was deeply touched by the lyrics of Klopstock at Von Bulow's funeral, and rewrote them for his own use. Auferstehung has a terrifying beginning (first movement), but a glorious and positive ending, comparable to the final verses of the Stabat mater text. Amen.

'Desperate' as in 'really wanting it to be true'. For me, the finale of the 2nd symphony affirms itself to such a constant extent as to make me think Mahler was trying to overwrite the demons of the third movement, more than address them.

You could say even say I think he was trying to do the same with the 4th's finale, even if he meant it literally.

[Marc]

'Desperate' as in 'really wanting it to be true'. For me, the finale of the 2nd symphony affirms itself to such a constant extent as to make me think Mahler was trying to overwrite the demons of the third movement, more than address them.

You could say even say I think he was trying to do the same with the 4th's finale, even if he meant it literally.

Dear Renfield, we both love our different Mahlers, me thinks.
I know I like mine and will be doing that, because I'm moved by all those naïve (IMO, that is) religious and divine views upon death and resurrection.
But of course believing can be wanting to believe.
So I just want to believe in that carefree Mahlerian child of Number Four, and also in that comforting adult of the Finale of the 2nd. 0:)

[Renfield]

So I just want to believe in that carefree Mahlerian child of Number Four, and also in that comforting adult of the Finale of the 2nd. 0:)

And maybe you are even the better listener for it!

[greg]

Wow... where's the dying child coming from? 
You don't think there is anything genuinely happy that Mahler ever wrote?

"This movement is about baby lambs  and little ducklings...
...
... ON THE WAY TO THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE!"


"This movement is about two children playing with their red rubber ball, laughing in the sunshine...
...
...TRYING TO COVER THEIR TEARS AS THEIR PARENTS ARE BEING BURIED.

ROFL, that's hilarious! 

Just so everyone knows, I love the Mahler 4th. Sure, it's pretty much sunshine all the way through (and I usually despise that), but it just sounds good somehow.

[Sergeant Rock]

Edit: But let me put it beyond doubt that I am genuinely interested in what Mahler might have explicitly said about the 4th symphony.

He refused to give the symphony a specific program but here are a few things he said about it (all quotes taken from La Grange's second volume; Mahler's words in italics):

He defined the basic mood of the symphony as the uniform blue sky which is harder to suggest than any changing and contrasting tints. But sometimes the atmosphere darkens and grows strangely terrifying. Not that the sky itself clouds over: it goes on shining with its everlasting blue. But we suddenly become afraid of it, just as on a brilliant day in the sun-dappled forest one is often overcome by a panic terror.

....a gaiety coming from another sphere, and hence terrifying for humans: only a child can understand and explain it in the end: a child who already belongs to this superior world [i.e., the kid's dead]

The second movement originally bore the subtitle Death strikes up a dance for us; he strokes the fiddle most strangely and plays us up to heaven. The Scherzo is mysterious, confused, uncanny. It will make your hair stand on end.

About the Adagio: A melody both divinely gay and deeply sad pervaded the whole movement. He likens the movement to the faces on prone statues of old knights and prelates one sees lying in churches; a peaceful gentle expression of men who have gained acces to a higher bliss...such is the character of this movement, which also has deeply sad moments, comparable to reminiscences of earthly life... While composing the Adagio he could sometimes see his mother's face as she smiled through her tears.

In the radiant final tutti of the movement, the opening of the gates of heaven, the atmosphere becomes catholic, almost churchlike.

For the Finale Mahler gave no program other than the text itself.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

But maybe there are interprets who might suggest that this 5th part of Mahler 3 should be considered as very ironic or even depressive, too?

Yes there are. Mitropoulos and Levine are two who bring out a very dark element in this music.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

My German is a bit rusty. The difference is "We enjoy the heavenly pleasures" instead of "We will enjoy the heavenly pleasures".

Yes, that's right.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Of course, it's fundamentally nothing but music, just organized sounds with no intrinsic "meaning," only that which we bring to it.

Well....yes, but the Romantics did talk about their music in extramusical terms. Maybe Brahms didn't think his music had "meaning" but I'm sure Schumann did, and Mahler too. But you're right. We bring our own baggage to the music. I don't know Renfield's religious views but as a lapsed Lutheran I get no comfort in imagining a heaven with streets paved in gold. I don't think that awaits us after death. Mahler's vision of a child's heaven likewise gives me no comfort. If he actually meant it literally, then it's nothing but kitsch. Very, very beautfiul kitsch but kitsch nonetheless (kitsch defined as banal art that euphemizes life so we won't be troubled by unpleasant realities). Mahler's own words reinforce the view that the Fourth is not all unalloyed joy. As in all his works, there are contradictions, fears even terror in this music. We can pretend a dead child is happy but I think Mahler knew better. Witness his Kindertotenlieder.

Sarge

[Renfield]

The second movement originally bore the subtitle Death strikes up a dance for us; he strokes the fiddle most strangely and plays us up to heaven. The Scherzo is mysterious, confused, uncanny. It will make your hair stand on end.

About the Adagio: A melody both divinely gay and deeply sad pervaded the whole movement. He likens the movement to the faces on prone statues of old knights and prelates one sees lying in churches; a peaceful gentle expression of men who have gained acces to a higher bliss...such is the character of this movement, which also has deeply sad moments, comparable to reminiscences of earthly life... While composing the Adagio he could sometimes see his mother's face as she smiled through her tears.

In the radiant final tutti of the movement, the opening of the gates of heaven, the atmosphere becomes catholic, almost churchlike.

Yes!

So it does appear 'my' Mahler is not entirely fabricated; or at least, this is very close to my personal impressions of these movements.

In this context, the quote DavidRoss have above might be more exclusively related to establishing dramatic tone, vs. indicating how Mahler intended his own 'author's voice' to come out in the final movement. Food for thought. Thanks Sarge.


As for my religious views, suffice it to say I do not live my days towards eternal salvation in a blaze of heavenly glory.

In fact, it's the 'yes and no' way I myself respond to religious music that most makes me feel Mahler's own particular way of expressing his 'conviction' of a peaceful afterlife is not entirely literal; or at the very least not entirely unalloyed.

[Marc]

We can pretend a dead child is happy but I think Mahler knew better. Witness his Kindertotenlieder.

The Kindertotenlieder were written by Rückert, after he lost two children. They are mainly about the father's sadness.

The living persons who are left behind are very sad and lamenting, because they are missing their beloved one(s).

The dead person is believed to be happy, for he/she has gained eternal life in paradise. Witness the end of Mahler's fifth selection of Rückert's Kindertotenlieder:
In this weather, in this gale, in this windy storm,
they rest as if in their mother's house:
frightened by no storm,
sheltered by the hand of God.

If your sins will be forgiven, this is also accessible to, and even the ultimate goal for all Christians, even Lutherans . Witness Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin.

Though not for lapsed ones: those who once acknowledged the Lord, but decided to go back on Him, are certain of a one-way-ticket to hell, when the Day arrives. Witness the Holy Bible.

Sarge, you and I will share our afterlife together!

[jlaurson]

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 2)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1518



Klimt, "Tree of Life", Stoclet Frieze

The font used in the title is "ITC Stocklet Bold"

[Scarpia]

Just listened to Mahler 5, the Vaclav Neumann recording with the Gewandhaus orchestra, a recent reissue by Brilliant Classics.  What a wonderful performance!  Lively, expressive, well balanced, with good, perhaps somewhat dry sound.  Lots of little insights upon listening (which is a tall order, given how many times I have heard this symphony).  It is a great shame that the cycle this recording comes from is not available on CD.  Hopefully Brilliant Classics will follow up on this one.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

  It is a great shame that the cycle this recording comes from is not available on CD.  Hopefully Brilliant Classics will follow up on this one.

I'm a little confused. Is there a complete Neumann/Leipzig cycle? He did a complete cycle later with the CzPO (on Supraphon), but I don't know if that's currently available.

[jlaurson]

I'm a little confused. Is there a complete Neumann/Leipzig cycle? He did a complete cycle later with the CzPO (on Supraphon), but I don't know if that's currently available.

I, too, am not aware of a Neumann/Leipzig cycle. The Supraphon cycle, however, is available in a neat slim box:



Mahler,
Complete Symphonies
Vaclav Neumann / CzPO
Supraphon

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 2)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1518



Klimt, "Tree of Life", Stoclet Frieze

The font used in the title is "ITC Stocklet Bold"

[Scarpia]

I, too, am not aware of a Neumann/Leipzig cycle. The Supraphon cycle, however, is available in a neat slim box:



Mahler,
Complete Symphonies
Vaclav Neumann / CzPO
Supraphon

My mistake, not a complete cycle with the Gewandhaus, but I think he did 5, 6, 7 and 9, at least.  I have 5 and 9. 

[jlaurson]

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 1)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1535





The font used in the title is "Auriol Roman"

[jlaurson]

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 2)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1561



The font used in the title is "ITC Franklin Gothic"