Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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Sergeant Rock

Quote from: edward on June 19, 2007, 05:47:37 AM
I'm probably going to get the Klemperer some time soon, actually. ;)

Really? Cool   8)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

knight66

Call centres and the incincere messages whilst I absorb my time holding until someone actually deals with me.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

PSmith08

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:40:20 AM
Looks good to me. I own most of them (not the Inoue 5, Mitropoulos 6, Horenstein 7 or Segerstam 8 ) and some are among my favorite versions. The only ones on your list I would not recommend: the Rattle 10 (his Berlin version is better but I still prefer Barshai, Gielen, Sanderling and above all, Ormandy) and the Naxos 7. Better to go with one of the great performances in this problematic (to some) symphony: Barenboim, Abbado (Chicago), Chailly or Bernstein (Sony or DG). My own favorite Seventh I don't recommend to anyone; it's just too weird ;D

I can't fault O or PSmith's recommendations. I particularly agree with O's choice of Solti for the 6th and Smith's Klemperer 9. Both recommended Barenboim in 7. So do I.

I'd add:

Maazel with Battle 4 (slowest last movement I've ever heard and it works beautifully)

Ozawa 1 (I love the Blumine; I think it fits perfectly between the first movement and the second. The five movement scheme seems very Mahlerian to me)

Kaplan 2 (either performance but I lean towards Vienna; arguably Kaplan knows this symphony better than anyone)

Haitink or Kubelik with Baker Das Lied von der Erde (Janet Baker...remember that name  8) )

Barbirolli with Baker Kindertotenlieder, Rückertlieder

Sarge

The Ormandy performance of the M10 is, in my book, probably the best. It was, as I recall, sanctioned by the former Frau Mahler, at that point Frau Mahler-Gropius-Werfel, and it has a freshness that Cooke eventually revised out of the work. I doubt that removal was his intent, but it happened. Ormandy's Philadelphia crew, as elegant as ever, does a fine job with - from the 875 Gustav Mahler-completed bars to Cooke's completion of the remaining 1119 bars - Mahler's last and conceivably most-difficult symphony.

Either Haitink or Kubelik is a good rec. for Das Lied. I'm partial to the 1987 Salzburg performance by Giulini with Brigitte Fassbaender and Francisco Araiza, on Orfeo as part of its share of the Festspiel Dokumente program. Not bad, and Giulini's elegance works well.

Still, the Sergeant's recs, too, are hard to beat.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 06:38:09 AM
The Ormandy performance of the M10 is, in my book, probably the best. It was, as I recall, sanctioned by the former Frau Mahler, at that point Frau Mahler-Gropius-Werfel, and it has a freshness that Cooke eventually revised out of the work. I doubt that removal was his intent, but it happened. Ormandy's Philadelphia crew, as elegant as ever, does a fine job with - from the 875 Gustav Mahler-completed bars to Cooke's completion of the remaining 1119 bars - Mahler's last and conceivably most-difficult symphony.

Agree completely. I've known this Mahler 10 for 40 years. It's remained my favorite Tenth despite hearing nearly every other recorded version. I heard Ormandy talk about the first time he and the Philadelphia played it in concert. He said during those closing pages of the last movement there was not a dry eye in the house. Hyperbole, of course, but that is exactly the emotion I feel when I listen to Ormandy's recording. It does choke me up. There are better sounding recordings but none plumb the emotional depths quite like Ormandy and Philadelphia.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

knight66

Daft question here.....is the version Ormandy uses the Cook one and is it the same draft used in the much later recordings? I had thought the version Rattle for instance uses was new at the time. I don't have my Mahler CDs around to consult.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

AnthonyAthletic

Quote from: knight on June 19, 2007, 09:08:36 AM
Daft question here.....is the version Ormandy uses the Cook one and is it the same draft used in the much later recordings? I had thought the version Rattle for instance uses was new at the time. I don't have my Mahler CDs around to consult.

Mike

Ormandy 1965 used Cooke's Version I which he completed in 1964, that was his first complete performing version.  Cooke Version 0 was from 1960 although the 1/3/5 were complete he only transcribed fragments of the 2nd & 4th movements

Cooke's revisions from 1966 to 1972 were the basis of all Mahler 10th recordings from 1972 to 1992.  And his final revisons the third Cook performing version was issued in 1989, I guess recordings from 1992 onwards use Cooke III, but the core of Mahler 10th's use Cooke II.

Then there's Barshai (Barshai Brilliant Issue), Carpenter (Andrew Litton), Wheeler (Robert Olson), Mazetti (only Slatkin did this that I know of), Samale/Mazzucca (not issued as a recording yet)

The Ormandy is one of my favourite Mahler 10th's also  ;)

"Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying"      (Arthur C. Clarke)

PSmith08

Quote from: knight on June 19, 2007, 09:08:36 AM
Daft question here.....is the version Ormandy uses the Cook one and is it the same draft used in the much later recordings? I had thought the version Rattle for instance uses was new at the time. I don't have my Mahler CDs around to consult.

Mike

Ormandy's recording is the premiere of the so-called Cooke I version, which had its premier under Berthold Goldschmidt in August 1964 at the Proms. This version was the only one to receive Frau Mahler's permission, as she died that year. Cooke II, 1966-1972, was premiered by Goldschmidt, too, and was the standard edition until Cooke III - done between 1972 and 1975, but interrupted by Cooke's 1976 death - which was published in 1989. Since Martinon's version is OOP, as far as I can tell, Ormandy's version is the only recording of Cooke I still on the market, which is a shame. Sentimentally, I think that Alma Mahler's approval makes Cooke I the hands-down choice; pragmatically, I know that you rarely get something as "right" as you do the first time after monkeying around with it.

Rattle used Cooke II, with some personal percussion revisions, as I recall, for his Bournemouth recordings, and Cooke III for his Berlin version. I think, in any event, that this was the case.

MishaK

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 09:41:52 AM
Since Martinon's version is OOP, as far as I can tell...

With which orchestra was this?

karlhenning

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 09:41:52 AM
Ormandy's recording is the premiere of the so-called Cooke I version, which had its premier under Berthold Goldschmidt in August 1964 at the Proms. This version was the only one to receive Frau Mahler's permission, as she died that year. Cooke II, 1966-1972, was premiered by Goldschmidt, too, and was the standard edition until Cooke III - done between 1972 and 1975, but interrupted by Cooke's 1976 death - which was published in 1989. Since Martinon's version is OOP, as far as I can tell, Ormandy's version is the only recording of Cooke I still on the market, which is a shame. Sentimentally, I think that Alma Mahler's approval makes Cooke I the hands-down choice; pragmatically, I know that you rarely get something as "right" as you do the first time after monkeying around with it.

Rattle used Cooke II, with some personal percussion revisions, as I recall, for his Bournemouth recordings, and Cooke III for his Berlin version. I think, in any event, that this was the case.

Sort of sounds like Cooke ought to have gotten out a bit more, eh?

AnthonyAthletic

Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 09:47:24 AM
Sort of sounds like Cooke ought to have gotten out a bit more, eh?

Guess it paid well Karl  ;D

Now we just need a full lecture to describe what the others did differently, what they amended.  Wonder if Zander fancies knocking something up for me  ;D

"Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying"      (Arthur C. Clarke)

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 19, 2007, 09:50:48 AM
Guess it paid well Karl  ;D

Now we just need a full lecture to describe what the others did differently, what they amended.  Wonder if Zander fancies knocking something up for me  ;D

You like Zander? His sing-song voice annoys the hell out of me.

PSmith08

Quote from: O Mensch on June 19, 2007, 09:46:16 AM
With which orchestra was this?

Chicago Symphony Orchestra, if I recall correctly. Martinon was music director there from '63-'68, following Fritz Reiner and preceding Georg Solti.

Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 09:47:24 AM
Sort of sounds like Cooke ought to have gotten out a bit more, eh?

He was a musicologist, but - yes - he probably should have gotten a hobby other than attempting to idiomatically orchestrate Gustav Mahler's four-stave notation for the last half of his last symphony.

karlhenning

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 09:52:43 AM
You like Zander? His sing-song voice annoys the hell out of me.

He's a good speaker, and fairly enjoyable to listen to, live.  I wouldn't listen to him in recorded commentary, though.

PerfectWagnerite

So Cooke likes to complete Mahler's 10th. Surely nobody can fault him for that right? There are other people with weirder hobbies like analyzer bug feces.

karlhenning


karlhenning

Seriously, lads, thank you for the fascinating info viz. Cooke.

AnthonyAthletic

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 09:52:43 AM
You like Zander? His sing-song voice annoys the hell out of me.

Yes, I don't mind his Mahler freebie 'lectures'.  Quite informative and entertaining.

Gerhard Schwarz, once of my local RLPO was excellent at pre concert talks which he used to give in Liverpool on Sundays before performing a couple of major works for £5 a concert.

Used to enjoy getting out of the house for a good Sunday session with Mr Schwarz, it wasn't just Tony & Gerhard, a thousand other people were there as well, hope I wasn't giving the impression that GS did his lectures just for me  ;D

"Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying"      (Arthur C. Clarke)

PSmith08

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 09:58:52 AM
So Cooke likes to complete Mahler's 10th. Surely nobody can fault him for that right? There are other people with weirder hobbies like analyzer bug feces.

Eh. My gripe is that the Cooke I performing version was pretty solid and had Frau Mahler's approval. He then continued to revise and "correct," with no successive version having the freshness and je ne sais quoi of the original. Maybe, its originality? ( ;))

Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 10:06:24 AM
Seriously, lads, thank you for the fascinating info viz. Cooke.

Who doesn't love technical textual history?

MishaK

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 09:56:19 AM
Chicago Symphony Orchestra, if I recall correctly. Martinon was music director there from '63-'68, following Fritz Reiner and preceding Georg Solti.

That's correct. Was this a commercial recording or something issued "from the archives" by the CSO, along the lines of the Martinon Mahler 3?

PSmith08

Quote from: O Mensch on June 19, 2007, 10:28:12 AM
That's correct. Was this a commercial recording or something issued "from the archives" by the CSO, along the lines of the Martinon Mahler 3?

It was a CSO release, I think.