Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[knight66]

Guys, Thanks very much for the info. I have never quite come to terms with the 10th, not an issue with it being inauthentic in any way. I will get to grips with it,I just so far have not connected well with it.

Mike

[PSmith08]

Guys, Thanks very much for the info. I have never quite come to terms with the 10th, not an issue with it being inauthentic in any way. I will get to grips with it,I just so far have not connected well with it.

Mike

Sure thing. I should say that, much as I like the Ormandy M10, I haven't come to grips with the symphony itself. It's sort of like, relative to his oeuvre, like walking down a road, cresting a hill, and seeing something entirely unexpected.

[knight66]

Yes; perhaps I would have been more open with it had I been told it was by someone influenced by Mahler. Somehow the 9th feels so much like the period at the end of a long book, I find it difficult to get my head round basically a resurrection.

Mike

[Steve]

Sure thing. I should say that, much as I like the Ormandy M10, I haven't come to grips with the symphony itself. It's sort of like, relative to his oeuvre, like walking down a road, cresting a hill, and seeing something entirely unexpected.

I experience the same feeling while listening to his 9th. That final movement is anything but expected. 

[karlhenning]

Eh. My gripe is that the Cooke I performing version was pretty solid and had Frau Mahler's approval. He then continued to revise and "correct," with no successive version having the freshness and je ne sais quoi of the original. Maybe, its originality? ( )

Yes. II and III must have been partly exercises in self-loathing 

Who doesn't love technical textual history?

In moderation, one of life's great pleasures, indeed  0:)

[PSmith08]

Yes; perhaps I would have been more open with it had I been told it was by someone influenced by Mahler. Somehow the 9th feels so much like the period at the end of a long book, I find it difficult to get my head round basically a resurrection.

Mike

It's a transitional work, and it would have been interesting to see where Mahler was going with his style, had he not died. As it is, I am just used to the progression from Das klagende Lied through the 1st and the Wunderhorn symphonies to the middle period and, then, the 8th and 9th. The 10th seems like Mahler was opening a new door, beyond even the 7th and 9th, but it's a door I just don't fully understand - beyond its power and beauty, to mix my metaphors.

Yes. II and III must have been partly exercises in self-loathing 

I was going to say masochism, but self-loathing works, too.

In moderation, one of life's great pleasures, indeed  0:)

Hey, there's nothing better than sorting out which version came first and which version incorporated which revision.

[Papy Oli]

Thank you everyone for your input on my "list" ! that's me now heading back to the drawing board to fine tune it, which was no less that what i was expecting when i posted my query ... glad i said it wasn't a definitive list

[Papy Oli]

The Horenstein New Philharmonia 7th must be a figment of your imagination. Maybe you meant Klemperer?

Bonjour Andre,

for once, not my imagination in this case, i read that here :

http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca:8080/Mahler/Symphony7

but hey, what do I know ? that's why i asked here 

[Papy Oli]

right, i have revamped the list as below and ordered some of it too !! 

M1 - Kubelik (on order)
M2 - sticking with my Klemperer for now (Chailly/concertgebouw in basket for later)
M3 - Haitink/concertgebouw (pricey - in basket for later)
M4 - Reiner/Chicago (cheap but off stock, so basket for later)
M5 - sticking with my Tennstedt for now (Bernsstein/VPO in basket for later)
M6 - Szell/Cleveland (cheap but off stock, so basket for later)
M7 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle (pricey, basket for later)
M8 - Sticking with my Solti for now
M9 - Karajan Live/DG (on order, used)
M10 - Ormandy (on order)

I'll keep the lieder for later on as well !... had to control the budget a bit !! 

I ordered Steinberg's book though, "The Symphony : A listener's guide"...will be handy reading for those, and the Bruckner's sibelius's etc... !! 

thanks again for your comments and recommendations. I'll keep you posted 

[Lilas Pastia]

Bonjour Andre,

for once, not my imagination in this case, i read that here :

http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca:8080/Mahler/Symphony7

but hey, what do I know ? that's why i asked here 

I stand corrected . Sorry for that. I had no idea this had ever existed. Indeed I'm rather surprised to learn that Horenstein had any interest in this, maybe the most 'specialized' Mahler symphony.

OK, now, what does it sound like? 

[Drasko]

I stand corrected . Sorry for that. I had no idea this had ever existed. Indeed I'm rather surprised to learn that Horenstein had any interest in this, maybe the most 'specialized' Mahler symphony.

OK, now, what does it sound like? 

According to Hurwitz

According to Duggan

[Sergeant Rock]

Sort of sounds like Cooke ought to have gotten out a bit more, eh?

One reason Cooke continued to work on the orchestration is because many critics complained his original didn't sound enough like Mahler. And today critics do seem to prefer the revision's fuller, more idiomatic sound. PSmith and I are probably in the minority here. The reason I like Cooke I is because it doesn't pretend to be anything more than a performing edition of the existing original material. There's just enough done to Mahler's extant score to make it presentable in concert...to let us hear the "idea" of this work and get a feel of where Mahler was heading. (The Ninth wasn't the end. Mahler didn't think it was the end.) I think it's presumptuous to go beyond what Cooke did originally (it's second guessing Mahler). And I think it's simply more poignant hearing this skeleton.

Sarge

[Papy Oli]

I stand corrected . Sorry for that. I had no idea this had ever existed. Indeed I'm rather surprised to learn that Horenstein had any interest in this, maybe the most 'specialized' Mahler symphony.

OK, now, what does it sound like? 

no worries at all  ...that was just one info i picked as i browsed around for the mahler symphonies..that site seemed overly keen on horenstein for whatever reason...haven't listened to him yet, and it has moved down the "to buy" list, now the barenboim is on favorite for the 7th...so it will be while yet

[Papy Oli]

According to Hurwitz

According to Duggan

One's mileage may vary.... 

[Sergeant Rock]

that site seemed overly keen on horenstein for whatever reason...

Yes, be careful. Horenstein, much like Celibidache, has become a cult figure. That isn't the conductors' fault but the result of overly zealous fans. I'm one of them    But I'm hesitant about recommending their recordings to the uninitiated.

Sarge 

[PerfectWagnerite]

The Horenstein M3 is probably THE single most overrated recording ever. Is it good? Parts of it. But let's face the facts 1) terrible sound, sonic picture moves all over the place. Sounds like the balance engineer was on morphine half the time 2) uninspired lower strings, especially weak basses 3)Little sense overall of the rubato that is so important in Mahler's music.

I guess in Sarge's case if you grow up with it you can live with it. But I didn't grow up with it therefore I don't have to cut it any slack.

[karlhenning]

One reason Cooke continued to work on the orchestration is because many critics complained his original didn't sound enough like Mahler.

I'm sure that was part of the complaint levied against him, Sarge . . . but the complainers flatter themselves that they know how Mahler would have sounded, in his tenth symphony.  Which no one but Mahler would be in a position to know.

Imagine that Beethoven wrote only his symphonies nos. one through eight.  Imagine that he just left piano score for part of the ninth.  Imagine that the ninth as in fact we know it, was not finished by Beethoven, but an attempt by some (admittedly, unusually talented) musicologist.  They'd cry over how it doesn't sound like the Beethoven symphonies they already know . . . and of course, they'd be right.

You and Patrick have the right idea.  No one in the world knows how Mahler would have made his tenth sound;  so Cooke had no need to adjust his original completion, at least out of that consideration.

[Sergeant Rock]

The Horenstein M3 is probably THE single most overrated recording ever. Is it good? Parts of it. But let's face the facts 1) terrible sound, sonic picture moves all over the place. Sounds like the balance engineer was on morphine half the time 2) uninspired lower strings, especially weak basses 3)Little sense overall of the rubato that is so important in Mahler's music.

Yes, those are some of the negative things about the recording and performance. But you didn't list the positive, and there are positive, even unique things about it...which is what I focus on when I listen to it. But as I said, I don't recommend everything I personally love, and I seldom proselytize. I'm content to enjoy it by my lonesome 

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm GMG's Newest Veteran

I need to get a life 

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm sure that was part of the complaint levied against him, Sarge . . . but the complainers flatter themselves that they know how Mahler would have sounded, in his tenth symphony.  Which no one but Mahler would be in a position to know.

Exactly.

Sarge