Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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PSmith08

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 03:16:18 PM

One reason Cooke continued to work on the orchestration is because many critics complained his original didn't sound enough like Mahler. And today critics do seem to prefer the revision's fuller, more idiomatic sound. PSmith and I are probably in the minority here. The reason I like Cooke I is because it doesn't pretend to be anything more than a performing edition of the existing original material. There's just enough done to Mahler's extant score to make it presentable in concert...to let us hear the "idea" of this work and get a feel of where Mahler was heading. (The Ninth wasn't the end. Mahler didn't think it was the end.) I think it's presumptuous to go beyond what Cooke did originally (it's second guessing Mahler). And I think it's simply more poignant hearing this skeleton.

Sarge

I guess part of my reasoning, other than the fact that Cooke got it as right as he could on the first go, is that Mahler was making near-paradigm shifts in style pretty rapidly in his later symphonies. From the 5th to the 7th, there is a rapid and clear progression of style and sensibility. The 8th, as much as I sort of like it, is a train-wreck with the first half being Bach on steroids and the second half being an echt-Wagnerian oratorio. Then, out of nowhere, but - seemingly - out of every part of his oeuvre (stretching back to the 1st in some cases), come Das Lied and the 9th. The 10th, from what Mahler himself "finished" (i.e., orchestrated), was a continuation of the new direction of the 9th, but what did he really intend? Only Gustav Mahler knew. Cooke's first performing version, as the good Sergeant pointed out, is a skeleton. There's more Mahler there than in later versions, and that's what's important to me.

Bonehelm

Does anybody know how many musicians are involved in the recording of Chailly/RCO's M8?

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 04:53:12 PM
Does anybody know how many musicians are involved in the recording of Chailly/RCO's M8?

The normal amount...exactly one thousand  ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 04:53:12 PM
Does anybody know how many musicians are involved in the recording of Chailly/RCO's M8?

I just checked the booklet. It doesn't say. Sorry.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Bonehelm

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:18:51 PM
I just checked the booklet. It doesn't say. Sorry.

Sarge

That's alright, thanks for your effort anyway. Looks like I'll have to grab the DVD version, pause the screen and count then.  :D

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 04:39:17 PM
The 8th, as much as I sort of like it, is a train-wreck with the first half being Bach on steroids and the second half being an echt-Wagnerian oratorio.

;D :D ;D

I like to think of Part II as the opera Mahler never wrote. By the way, I love the 8th. I have no hesitations or doubts. It makes me wish he would have lived long enough to complete the Tenth and to compose one great opera...like Beethoven. In my alternative universe, he would have spent his declining years writing marvelous chamber music, piano quartets, string quintets and sextets.  8)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

#226
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 05:27:06 PM
That's alright, thanks for your effort anyway. Looks like I'll have to grab the DVD version, pause the screen and count then.  :D

;D

I thought about counting when I was at the Philharmonie in Berlin last April. I estimated instead. 125 orchestra, 8 soloists, 400 in the three choirs maybe. Far less than a thousand anyway. False advertising. I should have demanded my money back  ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

PSmith08

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:30:28 PM
;D :D ;D

I like to think of Part II as the opera Mahler never wrote. By the way, I love the 8th. I have no hesitations or doubts. It makes me wish he would have lived long enough to complete the Tenth and to compose one great opera...like Beethoven. In my alternative universe, he would have spent his declining years writing marvelous chamber music, piano quartets, string quintets and sextets.  8)

Sarge

For whatever reason, I prefer Das Lied to the 8th. I suppose there are just two kinds of people in the world... ;)

Ah, if Mahler had lived twenty - even thirty - more years. The possibilities, and the changes to the face of modern music. Also, there would have been time to get him to do some acoustic recordings, at the very least. The Welte-Mignon rolls are nice, but actually hearing Mahler conduct his own works? I think that would pretty well settle any modern interpretative debates.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 05:43:57 PM
The Welte-Mignon rolls are nice, but actually hearing Mahler conduct his own works? I think that would pretty well settle any modern interpretative debates.

I think in one of those Zander/Mahler discussion discs (might be the one for the 5th symphony) there is a little excerpt of Mahler playing a piano reduction of the opening movement. I was shocked at how GOOD the sound quality is, better than the Schnabel Beethoven Sonatas recorded some a quarter of a century later.

karlhenning


bhodges

Quote from: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 04:53:12 PM
Does anybody know how many musicians are involved in the recording of Chailly/RCO's M8?

I was at a few of the live performances from which this recording was made, and there appeared to be roughly 500 people total (similar to Sarge's estimate in the Berlin Philharmonie). 

No performance I've seen so far uses anything close to 1,000 people, but I'm still hoping... ;D

--Bruce


PSmith08

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2007, 06:03:37 AM
I think in one of those Zander/Mahler discussion discs (might be the one for the 5th symphony) there is a little excerpt of Mahler playing a piano reduction of the opening movement. I was shocked at how GOOD the sound quality is, better than the Schnabel Beethoven Sonatas recorded some a quarter of a century later.

The sound quality is that good because it's modern sound, through and through. The Welte-Mignon machine, unlike conventional piano rolls, recorded (IIRC) the note, its duration, and the dynamics using ink marks, which were then transferred into holes that could be read by the Vorsetzer unit and played on an ordinary piano by means of felt-tipped rods. Despite having read the descriptions on the mighty Interweb numerous times, I still have no clue how it worked. However, Mahler cut four rolls for the Welte-Mignon people on 9th November 1905, which the Kaplan Foundation found, played on a machine, and recorded. So, in one sense, the performances are modern and Mahler had been dead for probably eighty years, but in another sense, it's as though Mahler himself is still in the room.

Quote from: karlhenning on June 20, 2007, 06:09:52 AM
Me, too.

I'm glad to know I'm not out here on my own for this one.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 07:22:05 AM
The sound quality is that good because it's modern sound, through and through. The Welte-Mignon machine, unlike conventional piano rolls, recorded (IIRC) the note, its duration, and the dynamics using ink marks, which were then transferred into holes that could be read by the Vorsetzer unit and played on an ordinary piano by means of felt-tipped rods. Despite having read the descriptions on the mighty Interweb numerous times, I still have no clue how it worked. However, Mahler cut four rolls for the Welte-Mignon people on 9th November 1905, which the Kaplan Foundation found, played on a machine, and recorded. So, in one sense, the performances are modern and Mahler had been dead for probably eighty years, but in another sense, it's as though Mahler himself is still in the room.

I'm glad to know I'm not out here on my own for this one.

Yeah, I was googling it and found that out. Thanks !
Mahler playing Mahler in digital stereo, how nice.

PSmith08

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2007, 07:36:31 AM
Yeah, I was googling it and found that out. Thanks !
Mahler playing Mahler in digital stereo, how nice.

It doesn't get much better than that, unless Wagner had an angelic singing voice, which I sort of doubt.  ;D

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 07:41:43 AM
It doesn't get much better than that, unless Wagner had an angelic singing voice, which I sort of doubt.  ;D

They can't record VOICES on that those rolls right?

Zander doesn't tell you that details either, he just says "Mahler on piano roll". What a liar !

PSmith08

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2007, 07:46:02 AM
They can't record VOICES on that those rolls right?

Nope. Just note, duration, and dynamics. (AFAIK)

QuoteZander doesn't tell you that details either, he just says "Mahler on piano roll". What a liar !

He's technically correct, but he could be a little more specific, as it's a bit of a marvel to have Mahler on any recorded medium - piano roll, wax cylinder, or what-have-you. In any event, no piano roll is a "live" recording, all mechanical all the time, as live recordings didn't come about until the cylinder days - later than the rolls.

mahlertitan

I have a recording of those piano rolls, they are interesting, but unfortunately they only represent very few pieces.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 07:22:05 AM
I'm glad to know I'm not out here on my own for this one.

No, it's me who's in the minority here. The 8th is the least favored symphony. Das Lied is far more popular. I've even heard diehard Mahlerites dis the 8th. I don't get it. The first part is pure ecstasy...the second part has some of the most sublime music I've ever heard. When I heard it live the first time, I couldn't believe how quickly it flew by. But then, it's nothing more than a quick stroll around the block compared to Parsifal. ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

bhodges

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:21:21 PM
No, it's me who's in the minority here. The 8th is the least favored symphony. Das Lied is far more popular. I've even heard diehard Mahlerites dis the 8th. I don't get it. The first part is pure ecstasy...the second part has some of the most sublime music I've ever heard. When I heard it live the first time, I couldn't believe how quickly it flew by. But then, it's nothing more than a quick stroll around the block compared to Parsifal. ;D

Sarge

I totally agree, and can't think of any better words than "ecstasy" and "sublime."  It has always puzzled me why many Mahler admirers don't seem to like it at all, despite loving all the other symphonies.

--Bruce