Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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PSmith08

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:21:21 PM
No, it's me who's in the minority here. The 8th is the least favored symphony. Das Lied is far more popular. I've even heard diehard Mahlerites dis the 8th. I don't get it. The first part is pure ecstasy...the second part has some of the most sublime music I've ever heard. When I heard it live the first time, I couldn't believe how quickly it flew by. But then, it's nothing more than a quick stroll around the block compared to Parsifal. ;D

Sarge

I'd agree with your judgments about the first and second parts. The "Faust-cantata," which seems to me the most felicitous name for the second half, does it for me more than the first half, which I find a bit much - except for "Gloria Patri Domino" with the kids. "Blicket auf" is one of the few pieces of music (i.e., <5-6) that can "get" me; however, I still seem to prefer Das Lied. I don't know why.

Quote from: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 01:32:24 PM
I totally agree, and can't think of any better words than "ecstasy" and "sublime."  It has always puzzled me why many Mahler admirers don't seem to like it at all, despite loving all the other symphonies.

--Bruce

It's not particularly Mahlerian? I don't know that, nor do I think that there is one echt-Mahlerian symphonic idiom, but I do think the 8th is a pretty major departure from the 5-6-7 style and not really a prefiguration of the 9th-10th style. In fact, I tend to think of Das Lied being a better bridge than the 8th, stylistically speaking. The unique place the 8th holds in Mahler's works puts it in an awkward situation. I can't think of another, similarly massive, departure and innovation - which is what the 8th surely was, in its own way.

bhodges

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 01:46:17 PM
It's not particularly Mahlerian? I don't know that, nor do I think that there is one echt-Mahlerian symphonic idiom, but I do think the 8th is a pretty major departure from the 5-6-7 style and not really a prefiguration of the 9th-10th style.

I would agree with you here.  It's almost as if he took "time out" to try something completely different. 

--Bruce


Sergeant Rock

I listened to four Resurrections this afternoon: Bernstein LSO, Bernstein NYPhil (DG), Walter and my new Slatkin. I promised a review this evening but Mrs. Rock and I took a long drive deep into the Pfalz for dinner. We ate well, drank well, and now I'm really tired. Review of the Slatkin tomorrow then, when I'm fresher. Food review in the Diner.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

bhodges

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:50:33 PM
I listened to four Resurrections this afternoon: Bernstein LSO, Bernstein NYPhil (DG), Walter and my new Slatkin.

:o

Will definitely look forward to your survivor's comments on those.  And with that, I bid you all adieu until tomorrow.

--Bruce

PSmith08

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:50:33 PM
I listened to four Resurrections this afternoon: Bernstein LSO, Bernstein NYPhil (DG), Walter and my new Slatkin. I promised a review this evening but Mrs. Rock and I took a long drive deep into the Pfalz for dinner. We ate well, drank well, and now I'm really tired. Review of the Slatkin tomorrow then, when I'm fresher. Food review in the Diner.

Sarge

Good gravy. You deserve a good meal for that sort of effort. I'll be interested to hear your Slatkin review, especially compared to the two Bernstein sets.

Bonehelm

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:50:33 PM
I listened to four Resurrections this afternoon: Bernstein LSO, Bernstein NYPhil (DG), Walter and my new Slatkin. I promised a review this evening but Mrs. Rock and I took a long drive deep into the Pfalz for dinner. We ate well, drank well, and now I'm really tired. Review of the Slatkin tomorrow then, when I'm fresher. Food review in the Diner.

Sarge

Holy crap...that's like eating 4 super-sized double big mac meals in one sitting...

not edward

Anyone here heard the BBC Legends Mahler 9 under Bruno Maderna? I notice a lot of people on rmcr are putting it near the top of their lists.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

PSmith08

Quote from: edward on June 20, 2007, 06:55:05 PM
Anyone here heard the BBC Legends Mahler 9 under Bruno Maderna? I notice a lot of people on rmcr are putting it near the top of their lists.

Let me put the Maderna recording in these terms: it is on the short list for my favorite Mahler 9th. I tend to prefer Klemperer, as there is something about his dry-eyed, granitic approach to the M9; however, the Maderna - with its surfeit of emotion (to the point of being manic) and fluid tempi - is endearing. I might say that Klemperer represents a performance in control and emotionally solid as a rock, while Maderna represents a performance on the edge. Not at all what one would expect from a Darmstadt composer, responsible for Quadrivium.

karlhenning

Quote from: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 01:32:24 PM
I totally agree, and can't think of any better words than "ecstasy" and "sublime."  It has always puzzled me why many Mahler admirers don't seem to like it at all, despite loving all the other symphonies.

FWIW, Bruce (& Sarge) . . . Part I gets so much "in the way" for me, that it was years before I even bothered listening to Part II.  Now, I freely own, Part II justifies all the glowing adjectives anyone could hope to heap upon Mahler.  But (and this is one composer's particular view, of course, and YMMV) Part I strikes me too bluntly as abuse of the text . . . I think of the word which Shostakovich wrily applied to the finale of his Fourth, as he was 'explaining' why he had withdrawn it: Grandiosomania.

karlhenning

Quote from: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 01:48:33 PM
I would agree with you here.  It's almost as if he took "time out" to try something completely different. 

In principle, nothing wrong with that, to be sure, Bruce :-)

karlhenning

Quote from: edward on June 20, 2007, 06:55:05 PM
Anyone here heard the BBC Legends Mahler 9 under Bruno Maderna? I notice a lot of people on rmcr are putting it near the top of their lists.

Isn't that interesting?  Of course, Webern, too was a forward-thinking composer who conducted Mahler with simpatico insight . . . .

Bogey

There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz


Greta

It's really quite good. Eschenbach is a sensitive Mahlerian and sympathetic to the deep feelings expressed in Mahler's writing. It has plenty of nice clips of him conducting Mahler with the Curtis Institute Orchestra and Philadelphia Orchestra, and as accompanist for selected lieder. I found it very moving when he spoke about his difficult childhood as a war orphan, and how only music brought him out of this terrible time. It also features Richard Dreyfuss as the Voice of Mahler, reading passages from Mahler's letters. Recommended. :)

A clip, of the Adagietto-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Yyaqqd9gg

Bonehelm

Quote from: Greta on June 25, 2007, 06:39:01 PM
It's really quite good. Eschenbach is a sensitive Mahlerian and sympathetic to the deep feelings expressed in Mahler's writing. It has plenty of nice clips of him conducting Mahler with the Curtis Institute Orchestra and Philadelphia Orchestra, and as accompanist for selected lieder. I found it very moving when he spoke about his difficult childhood as a war orphan, and how only music brought him out of this terrible time. It also features Richard Dreyfuss as the Voice of Mahler, reading passages from Mahler's letters. Recommended. :)

A clip, of the Adagietto-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Yyaqqd9gg


Thanks for the link, Greta.   :)

greg

Quote from: Greta on June 03, 2007, 11:01:02 PM
I just got a laugh! I got Karajan's live 9th on DG and looked at the track titles, and it actually says for some sections "Horns", "Brass", "Clarinets"...I guess because those smaller sections don't have specific tempo names. How funny! Those are about as good as I do for the signposts in my head when I'm listening myself. :D 

Wow, the 9th is absolutely transcendent. And it's really forward looking to the modern era, isn't it? Is this the one Schoenberg admired the most? I can definitely see why.

The 1st mvmt. shares some things in common with the 4th's Adagio and a little with the 5th's Adagietto, but also is interspersed with moments of sweeping chaos where he dances at the very edge of tonality. That thick mesh of polytonal writing where all the lines are moving at once, after the first big cries (Allegro risoluto), and those spooky brass clusters following. Incredible. This REALLY makes me wonder what he would've written if he'd not died young. I feel like studying this score is a black hole you could fall into. Such extremely complex and sophisticated writing!

I had to come back to edit this to say, it's really so affecting the way it vacillates between hope and despair, with pure bewilderment thrown in between. Almost painful at times. More than in any I feel here he's stuck in the nebulous place between two worlds, looking fondly back, despairing at going, and contemplating the beyond he's going to with this awed wonder and breathless confused mystery, (in the Wie von anfang and Lento!) I keep coming back in this mvmt. to those themes in his 4th and 5th Adagios, then he was gazing up at Heaven, but now it's this alternately scary, breathtaking beautiful reality. And when you consider the links between "I Am Lost to the World" and the 5th Adagietto, and the way he twists and distorts that theme in the middle of the Wie von anfang. I feel he's journeying down the tunnel towards the light, torn and unsure, and finally he comes to terms with it in the final minutes, the angels take him by the hand and say, "It's okay." The flute and violin solos...the angels' comforting voices...

And this is just the first movement!  :o I listened to this symphony only once before and it was just overwhelming, I knew I needed time, a lot of time, to come back to it, and finally here I am.

I haven't read this thread in awhile, but I like this post. The 9th being my favorite musical work of all time...
if it wasn't answered yet, it was Berg who described the opening movement as "the most glorious thing he ever wrote" (i've only read the line like a million times, lol)

yeah, i love that description of Mahler's music, especially stuff like the 9th. 'Love and pain' in the same breath, with a little bit of reflection and chaos, transcendence and banality all mixed together. It's like a yin yang  :D.
It's the way he hangs on to those major seconds and minor 3rds on the downbeat while remaining in a major context, just listen to the opening melody..... no other composer does this sort of stuff all the time, which is what makes him unique and why he's my favorite.

I read once that the whole 'love and pain' association came from the fact that his mother was cripple or kinda cripple, i can't remember. And also, the 9th being written as a farewell to the world by someone who enjoyed living (the love part) but has to die soon (the pain part) fits in, too. I just checked out a book today where I read the same exact idea, and i haven't thought of it before.

And yeah, the opening movement is so so so complex that's it's taken me a long time just to understand a lot of it. The recap, for example, doesn't exist, at least if you define a recap a certain, traditional way. As they were saying on the other thread, both the first and last movements don't have recaps but more like an exposition-development form. And the development has new material on top of that, i'm still trying to make sense of it...  8)

mahlertitan


from the new world

Quote from: greg on June 30, 2007, 01:51:21 PM
And yeah, the opening movement is so so so complex that's it's taken me a long time just to understand a lot of it. The recap, for example, doesn't exist, at least if you define a recap a certain, traditional way. As they were saying on the other thread, both the first and last movements don't have recaps but more like an exposition-development form. And the development has new material on top of that, i'm still trying to make sense of it...  8)

The first movement does have a recapitulation, but it has to depend on what you define as the exposition. If the exposition includes the second climax, then there only seems half a recap, before the horn and flute solo section. However, if you shorten the exposition to the two main exposition themes leading to the first climax, then consider a modified (heavily) repeat (as in the opening of the seventh), then the recap fits in quite well.

Bonehelm

I just listened to Solti/CSO's M1 and I've gotta say it's very good, maybe the second best right behind the Kubelik version.

techniquest

QuoteNo performance I've seen so far uses anything close to 1,000 people, but I'm still hoping...

The Sir Simon Rattle performance at the 2002 Proms at the Royal Albert Hall, London on August 13th 2002 had around 800 performers.