Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Amfortas]

The Orchestra of Paris doesn't come to mind as one of the great Mahler orchestras, but y'all still might enjoy this:

http://www.christoph-eschenbach.com/mahler/

Thanks, some of these are quite good. I have them all and can recommend. The orchestra sounds very good. Eschenbach's Mahler 6 begins with a nicely scary quality. But I found his 9th begins too slowly and the Andante doesn't hold together very well.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, some of these are quite good. I have them all and can recommend. The orchestra sounds very good. Eschenbach's Mahler 6 begins with a nicely scary quality.

That whole performance is very good. I listened to it a few months ago thanks to the link provided here.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The recent and well-received performance of DAS KLAGENDE LIED from the Proms, in good audio.

Mahler: Das klagende Lied (original version)

Christian Tetzlaff (violin) Melanie Diener (soprano) Anna Larsson (mezzo-soprano) Stuart Skelton (tenor) Christopher Purves (baritone) Augustus Bell (treble) Matthew Lloyd-Wilson (treble) Oluwatimilehin Otudeko (treble) Theodore Beeny (treble) Thomas Fetherstonhaugh (treble) Timothy Fairbairn (treble) BBC Singers BBC Symphony Orchestra Edward Gardner (conductor)

3 Parts in 3 Files:

http://www.4shared.com/folder/gbGTp4tc/Mahler_-_Das_Klagende_Lied_-_B.html

Thanks! I am sure to listen to it.

[Renfield]

I am 20 pages behind.

And that's after I'd caught up at some point, without posting.

[DavidRoss]

I've been so pleased by some of Gielen's Mahler (specifically 2,3,&6) that I've been considering springing for 9 as well. Consequently I've been listening to some favorites among those I already have.  Earlier today, Barbirolli and Boulez, and now MTT.  Do I really need another?

Nah....

[Renfield]

It has been published. I grabbed it yesterday. I was surprised it was with my old choir, the Edinburgh Festival Chorus.

Don't bother with it. Whatever excitements it holds there are two substantial problems. The main one is the poor sound. The choir is very distant, the sound is muddy and overall has a haze and little impact. The other problem is a fairly dire tenor: Simon O'Neill. He has the very occasional good note, but getting onto it and getting off it are painful for him and for us.

The conducting generates a lot of excitement and he provides periods of repose. Considering it comes from 2010, the sound is exceptionally disappointing. The Usher Hall is a difficult venue, but surely not more difficult than the Albert Hall. All three of the live Mahler 8s that I have from that venue, even one over 30 years old, are much better engineered.

What a letdown.

Mike

I'm still catching up, but let me (belatedly) note that I was actually there when that 8th was recorded.

It's sad to hear the sound quality didn't really deliver, and that tenor could've been better, but the sound must be terrible indeed if Erin Wall's spectacular (in the 'artistically sound' sense) soprano didn't deserve at least a mention!

Also of particular interest to me at the time - though again, the sound might blur that - was Runnicles' very 'Wagnerianly solemn' reading of both parts of the work. The way he brought the 'church music' (which it isn't), and the less contentious second half together under the same idiom was, given how rarely it's attempted, a very pleasant surprise.

In essence, it felt like Mahler's 8th delivered like a one-two punch, the traversal of a single block of symphonic music, rather than a compilation, enhanced by a very forceful vocal delivery from everyone involved (possibly related to the tenor issues).

It's a shame this didn't come through on disc, since it really was a very strongly argued performance.


However, I do think MTT used Erin Wall as well, and have been looking forward to acquiring his 8th ever since. If only the complete cycle didn't cost an absurd amount, I would've actually invested in it, given David's consistent praise.


Edit:

I've been so pleased by some of Gielen's Mahler (specifically 2,3,&6) that I've been considering springing for 9 as well. Consequently I've been listening to some favorites among those I already have.  Earlier today, Barbirolli and Boulez, and now MTT.  Do I really need another?

Nah....

Speak of the devil. For what it's worth, I find Gielen's 9th to be as good as his 3rd, and better than his 6th. It channels a little of the Schönberg in Mahler (or should that be the other way around?); a kind of 'naturalistic noir' effect, not unlike his 3rd and 7th to my ears. I don't prefer it to Barbirolli, but it wouldn't sound wrong to put it on par with the Boulez.

[Renfield]

To me it's like trying to accept the death of the universe and all life. Like having it in your hand and trying to accept that it will slip away, but you never come to terms with it and it slips away anyways.

That's why I find it to be the most painful music in the world. When I listen to Pettersson, it's like living in prison, but accepting it as normal. When I listen to Shostakovich, it's like living in a Communist prison, but making fun of the officials in private. They're both dark, but have some sort of feeling of acceptance in their music. With Mahler's 9th, it sounds like he's constantly putting up a fight for something "higher", but never turns it into reality. The "acceptance" part is nothing like Bruckner- as we go to sleep, we may fight trying to go to sleep all we want, but eventually we succumb to it. In the ending of the 9th, it's simply him succumbing to death, not "accepting" it.

And still catching up... However, I wanted to note how wonderful this paragraph is!

I agree entirely that Mahler is no Bruckner at all. Except that I feel this slipping away may just be the final answer that Mahler was looking for, after all. He fights, he struggles, he aspires, and then perhaps at that final moment of going away, he does so willingly. If there was to be a true acceptance of death, this is how I would see it, and I think Mahler may have seen it too. But the way it's written (I'm referring to literally the last three notes), you couldn't tell either way.

I like to think that this is intentional: that even if one had found his answer, it - and he - would be gone when, or as he did.


Edit: Interestingly, though, even though Bruckner was always finding answers every single time he wrote a symphony, so to speak, I think part of Bruckner's idiom is that he never did find any answers at all. Bruckner's music fundamentally evokes insurmountable doubt far beyond anything written by Mahler ever did, to me. However, as Greg suggests (I think), Bruckner sounds like he may have come to terms with that. Which would - ironically, given his doubts - make him a truly great Christian, if my purely speculative reading of his disposition is correct. Not that we are likely to know, either way.


Edit 2: I realise this whole discussion may be a little to hand-wavey mystical mumbo-jumbo folk psychology for many reading; it certainly is to me, when offered as anything other than a hunch. And that's all I'm offering it as.

[Renfield]

Alto all the same. 

I may be underrating Zinman's Mahler... and in fact I've not even yet opened / heard 6, 8, 9, 10 (I like that he went for Carpenter, at least in theory). Among the others, I only thought the 3rd was special. In concert, however, his Sixth recently (Leipzig) was amazing. Very nearly convinced Riccardo Chailly to perform the symphony "A-S" in the future... though I tried to quell that thought immediately with a look of horror on my face and an amateur's passionate plea for "S-A". 

I've said it before (I think), but the best Mahler 4th I've heard was a live one by Zinman, with his Zürich orchestra. It was so shatteringly beautiful, so vulnerable and so lyrical a performance that it took Sarge's recommendation for Maazel to even get me to listen to the piece again, half a year later. Which was great, but I'd still prefer the Zinman, if they issued it and (given Mike's and eyeresists' comments on the Runnicles 8th) it was well-recorded. [Almost done catching up!]

[Renfield]

Consolidating the rest, to avoid going beyond four posts in a row:

That link didn't work for me.

It looks like EMI have got the rights to the BBC performance for their set. I haven't heard that one, just the one from the complete cycle.
The reviews for the BBC release go on about how Bernstein is the touchstone for this symphony, which is a load of bull. 

I believe that live 7th is not the one released on BBC Legends that we all love. It's an earlier live release on EMI.

I can't confirm this at the moment, as it's the one Tennstedt Mahler recording on EMI I don't have, but I'm pretty sure the reason for that is my having the BBC Legends one, and thus not expecting a lesser-known prior issue would improve on it.

(And then I go and buy seven different recordings of the same Beethoven symphony from Karajan. Go figure! )

Mahler 2: LPO Jurowski live recording

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Vladimir+Jurowski+mahler

I am surprised no one has picked up on this performance. It got a rave review in Gramophone: which I know for some here may rule it out of court.

I have linked to a couple of other comments and sourced the best price I could find it at when I ordered it.

I know this best of all Mahler's symphonies and yet, as promised, it felt fresh and often raised goosebumps. There is a great deal of almost gossamer delicacy and elbow room without a moment of dragging. Overall the timing means it has to go onto two discs. But mere timings can be deceptive.

I love the rubato and the portamanto, neither of which sound like indulgences. The big moments are not underplayed. It feels organic rather than containing hysterical gear changes.

The orchestra sound is terrific and the recording is close in without undue highlighting of individual players.

The landler in the second movement is delicate rather than rustic. The dialogue of plucked strings quite playful. The third movement points and lifts the rhythms and the momentry drama towards the end of the movement comes through and makes its mark and the last two minutes shift like a mirage from playful to forboding.

I could go on. But really, I feel this is worth getting hold of, even if like me you thought you really did not need yet another Mahler 2.

Mike

Like I said on Facebook, it sounds like this may be the real deal. Mind, I am extremely skeptical about anyone that young pulling of something like the Mahler 2nd, but Rattle did it, and at least he's not Yannick Nézet-Séguin.

Seems like my next two classical purchases, when I can afford the venture, will be that and Rattle's new version, which may just be form-conscious and well-played enough to improve on his previous version, for my taste.

self-indulgent? you haven't yet seen self-indulgent!


http://www.youtube.com/v/YmkVaYYCVNQ

This evokes the balletic wizard duels of the Harry Potter films to a distressing extent.

[Roberto]

Edit: Interestingly, though, even though Bruckner was always finding answers every single time he wrote a symphony, so to speak, I think part of Bruckner's idiom is that he never did find any answers at all. Bruckner's music fundamentally evokes insurmountable doubt far beyond anything written by Mahler ever did, to me. However, as Greg suggests (I think), Bruckner sounds like he may have come to terms with that.

Music of Bruckner is like a segment of the infinite line of numbers (for me of course). Virtually no matter where you cut a slice you never could show the entire infinity and the slices are almost the same. But every moment, every point also contains the infinity.

[DavidRoss]

However, I do think MTT used Erin Wall as well, and have been looking forward to acquiring his 8th ever since. If only the complete cycle didn't cost an absurd amount, I would've actually invested in it, given David's consistent praise.

I like his 8th better than most, but not as much as that of his East Bay colleague, Kent Nagano.  As for collecting the cycle, I didn't intend to, but once I heard the 4th and the 2nd, then the 1st and the 6th, I was pretty well hooked.  And buying the last several one at a time as they were released kept the price down.  At $175 for the set it's rather steep.  One could easily get two or three other fine cycles for that amount.

[Jay F]

The Orchestra of Paris doesn't come to mind as one of the great Mahler orchestras, but y'all still might enjoy this:

http://www.christoph-eschenbach.com/mahler/

There are some cute boys in that orchestra.

[ibanezmonster]

And still catching up... However, I wanted to note how wonderful this paragraph is!

Wow, that was so long ago that I forgot I even wrote it. 

[kishnevi]

I like his 8th better than most, but not as much as that of his East Bay colleague, Kent Nagano.  As for collecting the cycle, I didn't intend to, but once I heard the 4th and the 2nd, then the 1st and the 6th, I was pretty well hooked.  And buying the last several one at a time as they were released kept the price down.  At $175 for the set it's rather steep.  One could easily get two or three other fine cycles for that amount.

Don't forget MTT is, like the Zinman and Gergiev, SACD.  And unlike the Zinman and like the Gergiev, a self release by the orchestra.

I like the MTT 8th but it does have at least one distinct problem--James Morris seems to like chewing up the words instead of singing them during the Pater Profundus section of Part II.  He's not the first to do this--John Shirley Quirk did it for Solti but not as badly as Morris--but it's an obvious defect.  I've only listened to the Nagano once, but liked what I heard and didn't really hear anything I didn't like.  I also liked Inbal when I listened to it as part of his cycle.

[Roberto]

I also liked Inbal when I listened to it as part of his cycle.

Inbal's 8th is impressive and the sound of the Denon recording is good (although sometimes suffers from the 2-microphone recording). I have the Solti's 8th and I've downloaded the Boulez but I ended listening after the first part. He misses so many beautiful moment which I like in Solti's and his structural sense was so chaotic for me.

[DavidRoss]

Don't forget MTT is, like the Zinman and Gergiev, SACD.  And unlike the Zinman and like the Gergiev, a self release by the orchestra.

There's a consistent quality in MTT's Mahler that's distinctive and intoxicating, for this fellow at least--a sort of cerebral sensuousness that luxuriates in the sheer beauty of sound while careening from wry detachment to emotional longing, from nostalgia for the old order to prescient dread of the coming new one, from working-class brashness to mystical yearning, presented with clarity respectful of and celebrating Mahler's masterful orchestration and with sound quality in no way deficient.

[kishnevi]

There's a consistent quality in MTT's Mahler that's distinctive and intoxicating, for this fellow at least--a sort of cerebral sensuousness that luxuriates in the sheer beauty of sound while careening from wry detachment to emotional longing, from nostalgia for the old order to prescient dread of the coming new one, from working-class brashness to mystical yearning, presented with clarity respectful of and celebrating Mahler's masterful orchestration and with sound quality in no way deficient.

That's a good way of putting it.  Of the three (Zinman, Gergiev, MTT) I'd rate MTT's cycle best.  Zinman has some individual symphonies that are outstanding--1,3,4, and above all 9--with the rest being good but not as good as the competition--and one (10) being a complete bust (although that might be due to his use of the Carpenter version, which is otherwise totally unknown to me).  Similarly, Gergiev has a couple that are outstanding--3 and 7--a couple that are nearly so--1 and 6--one complete flop (4), and the remaining three (2,5,8) maybe good but nowhere as good as the competition. I'd say his rendition of the Adagio from 10 is the best performance of the movement in isolation I've heard, but he didn't record the complete symphony. Neither did MTT.  [Gergiev's 9 is still unreleased, isn't it?] Whereas MTT has a consistently high quality--no flops, and while no single performance might be my top pick for a particular symphony,  they would all be among the top picks (especially 2 and 7).  Even 8, floundering James Morris and all.

Another thing in MTT's favor is that his cycle includes Das Klagende Lied, DLvdE, and most of the song cycles (he only includes a few from Des Knaben Wunderhorn). Zinman and (apparently) Gergiev don't.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

There's a consistent quality in MTT's Mahler that's distinctive and intoxicating, for this fellow at least--a sort of cerebral sensuousness that luxuriates in the sheer beauty of sound while careening from wry detachment to emotional longing, from nostalgia for the old order to prescient dread of the coming new one, from working-class brashness to mystical yearning, presented with clarity respectful of and celebrating Mahler's masterful orchestration and with sound quality in no way deficient.

The sound indeed is one of the great attributes of MTT's cycle. Warm yet detailed, deep though with a comforting spread, and with a naturalness that recalls the concert hall.

It's the perfect complement to MTT's overarching viewpoint, giving him ample room to parade all those orchestral felicities written in the score (whichever score).

I have six from his cycle (1,2,3,4,7,9) and the more I listen the more impressed I am with his conception.

[jlaurson]

The sound indeed is one of the great attributes of MTT's cycle. Warm yet detailed, deep though with a comforting spread, and with a naturalness that recalls the concert hall.

It's the perfect complement to MTT's overarching viewpoint, giving him ample room to parade all those orchestral felicities written in the score (whichever score).

I have six from his cycle (1,2,3,4,7,9) and the more I listen the more impressed I am with his conception.

MTT is very good; very few duds (7th, even if it isn't actually bad).
9th has one of the best last movements.
2nd very good, not the least thanks to Hunt-Lieberson. 3rd shot straight into my Mahler Survey selections (as the SACD choice), as did his Lied von der Erde. The 6th has a better story ("9/12") than it actually sounds (still very good), 4th and 5th not as memorable (apparently), 1st very good. 8th not bad... no more.

...Perhaps that's an East coast thing: Michael Tilson Thomas (SFS Media,) does the same thing with the San Francisco Symphony: aided by some of the most refined, gentlest string sound—and only at such sound can this successfully pulled off—does he span the movement over an astonishing 26 minutes. (The average is a little over 21 minutes, Kondrashin and Walter have it over and done with in under 18.) With him the music seems to be taking a deep, natural breath after each phrase. No real complaints about his soprano, Laura Claycomb, but nothing to write home about, or lift this glorious performance far above the mass of other wonderful performances...

... Tilson Thomas (SFS Media, ) is not usually part of that lot, being more a neutralized Bernstein-type (heart on the sleeve, but with cuff-links), but his Fifth would qualify. At their best, they can deliver fantastic Mahler; at their worst they come with faultless, pristine comity. I quite prefer the kind of personal Mahler recordings that Benjamin Zander (Telarc, ) makes, which rank higher in my estimation than my scant mention of him so far might suggest....

...Michael Tilson Thomas (S-A) and Simon Rattle (A-S) both offer very fine Sixths and I admit being a bit surprised in both cases: In MTT's case because his mix of elegance and beauty would seem to offer little more in the Sixth than Abbado or Jansons... except more re-touching and rubato. But what he delivers is a broad, colorful performance with wildly changing, often slow tempos, and exclamation-mark ritardandos. It must have been a harrowing night for the audience to listen to this onslaught on September 12th, 2001... and brutally appropriate. But preserved on disc, it cannot ultimately live up to the momentous moment it presented then and doesn't challenge, among the SACD competition, Fischer and Eschenbach....

...St Paul's acoustic, just shy of making the Eighth a mess, is tremendously helpful in creating the necessary atmosphere, and it especially pays off in the final minutes where Gergiev manages to be better than most, creating steam out of vapor, a fearsomely fierce storm around a lavishly dominating organ: Imposing and uplifting and far and away the best Gergiev-Mahler contribution yet. So much that he even beats the recent SACD-competition of Michael Tilson Thomas whose gear-change heavy Eighth I see in line with Boulez and Gielen II, ahead of the former, behind the latter, in terms of ambiance Mysticus-feel. As with Gielen, you can scarcely tell it's a live recording, so much does it sound like the only recent studio recording, Boulez'...

Altogether the best SACD cycle by far... unless one REALLY likes the no-pulls-no-pushes-just-the-notes Zinman, who has a very good 3rd, and much timidity or possibly blandness. Zinman live with the Sixth was awesome recently... but on CD it feels like a lesser reincarnation of Kubelik, minus his personality. The orchestra is fantastic, though.

Gergiev / LSO splits opinions; mine is fairly solidly down the negative side; found the Sixth and Seventh huge disappointments, the others lesser disappointments, the third marred by ridiculously bad singing -- no, wait... the Third is quite OK, actually.... good finale. It's the 2nd that's shite...

...no shame for Zlata Bulycheva's bizarre, incomprehensible contribution on the more recent LSO recording (LSO Live ) with Gergiev, though. What a mess—and not a performance to make up for it from the Russian and his band, either...

...the 8th very good, the 5th very good, the rest (as was said, the 9th has not been issued; it and the 5th had not been done properly in the first round, so they had to wait for a second touring-cycle to record them.)

[DavidRoss]

Taste's a funny thing.  Jens, you and I probably agree at least 4 out of 5 times, yet we're oddly divided on the MTT/SFS 7th--one of my faves in the set and the one you least like.  And I recall that of the two very fine recent recordings of the 4th, you preferred Haitink with Schäfer while I chose Fischer and Persson.  But I happened on a webcast of the 4th by Haitink, Schäfer, and the RCO that I thought was absolutely terrific and makes me want to hear the CD again! http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=9068963