Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Brian]

Interesting.  One of our MusicWeb comrades, John Quinn, reviewed the recording and considered it a "tremendous performance".  I'll give it a spin on NML.

That's exactly why I looked it up on NML for a listen, actually. I was all prepared to stand down from my mixed feelings about the first movement and join the cheering, but as the final chord grew more and more static I figured he was going to end it with one final crescendo. Nope.

By the way, I agree with JQ's praise of Michaela Schuster.

[eyeresist]

First movement is a touch too fast for me (33:25)

Looking at the three versions I have to hand, timings are:

Bertini       34:03
Rattle        33:36
Tennstedt 33:16

- so Stenz seems to be in the average range. I must say, my impression of Bertini is that he was generally too slow in this symphony, but I haven't listened to that performance for a while (perhaps today's the day?).

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm not sure there is an extraordinary 5th, excepting Lenny's DGG disc with the WP ... and maybe Barshai. 

I agree it is not easy to find a great Fifth...or at least a Fifth that satisfies one personally, and completely. It took me 18 attempts (including Lenny and Barshai) before I found one a few years ago I really liked (Neumann). But since then I've discovered a string of winners; a veritable flood:

Neumann/Leipzig

Boulez/Vienna

Chailly/Concertgebouw

Stenz/Gürzenich

Dohnányi/Cleveland

Kubelik/SOBR (DG...a case where the studio version is superior to the live Audite)

Inbal/Frankfurt

Solti/Chicago

Haitink/Berlin (Not a general recommendation; it's too slow, too ponderous; an interpretation almost completely devoid of charm, lightness and light. It's like the music has been swallowed by the dark side. Even the Rondo-Finale brings no relief.)

But I know from the blind comparisons, most of you will not agree with my list--at least not wholly agree. But I'm finally satisfied with a surfeit of great Fifths 

Sarge

[jlaurson]

I agree it is not easy to find a great Fifth...or at least a Fifth that satisfies one personally, and completely. It took me 18 attempts (including Lenny and Barshai) before I found one a few years ago I really liked (Neumann). But since then I've discovered a string of winners; a veritable flood:

Neumann/Leipzig

Boulez/Vienna

Chailly/Concertgebouw

Stenz/Gürzenich

Dohnányi/Cleveland

Kubelik/SOBR (DG...a case where the studio version is superior to the live Audite)

Inbal/Frankfurt

Solti/Chicago

Haitink/Berlin (Not a general recommendation; it's too slow, too ponderous; an interpretation almost completely devoid of charm, lightness and light. It's like the music has been swallowed by the dark side. Even the Rondo-Finale brings no relief.)

But I know from the blind comparisons, most of you will not agree with my list--at least not wholly agree. But I'm finally satisfied with a surfeit of great Fifths 

Sarge

Seconded in everything, except for  And Dohnányi and Solti, which I can't second due to ignorance.

Alongside Inbal and Stenz, I see a few others that are very fine, if slightly on the 'inoffensive' side... van Zweden/LPO, Gergiev/LSO (against all odds), Darlington/Duisburg. None of them must-haves like Neumann, Boulez, Chailly (if only for the sound), and Kubelik, though.

Oh, and Honeck. I think Honeck's First is very good... more distinct than the just above named.

[johndoe21ro]

I'm not taking part in the Mahler 1 thread, but over the weekend I conducted my own little survey of all the recordings in my collection (excepting Bernstein's NY, and Simonov from that old Brilliant box). I listened to some of the recordings twice for comparison purposes, but I confess I didn't always listen to all of the finale - it is IMO the least interesting of the four movements. Anyway, the results quite surprised me!

The top two were quite clear:

BERTINI
I'd previously not much bothered with this, but paying full attention I realised what I'd missed. This is the most "characteristic" of all the performances. The instruments sound fruitcake-rich and really invested in the piece, and Bertini's rubato and tempo changes show he's really thought about the structure of the piece as a whole. The ambience of the sound is also terrific.

INBAL
I've previously been unkind to Inbal's Mahler in this thread, but at least in this case I was in error. The sound isn't quite as miraculous as Bertini's, and the playing doesn't have the folksy-ness of the Koln orchestra, but otherwise this is top notch, a well played and really committed interpretation.

And the rest:

NANUT
An obscure one and a sentimental favourite. The sound is older than Inbal's and the interpretation isn't quite as deep, but the Llubjana orchestra are playing at their best, and it's a thoroughly satisfying performance.

WALTER 1 & 2
There's little difference between Walter's two recordings in the Sony set, except for stereo separation in the later one. Interestingly, he is swifter than most in all movements except the third, in which his timings are a minute longer than the norm. These are fine performances but I don't think Walter has anything special to say about this music. In modern sound he might be above Nanut, but this grey, ungratifying historical sound really can't compete for colour or detail.

BERNSTEIN
My chief reaction here was one of disappointment. Bernstein and the Concertgebouw produce a proficient recording of a top international standard, but I can't help feeling they think the music is second-rate. The playing doesn't have the commitment of the above recordings, and many of Bernstein's rubati and tempo changes seem pro forma, rather than part of an overall vision of the work. I expected him to wring some extra grotesquerie out of the third movement, but no.

TENNSTEDT
Another disappointment. First thing to mention is the terrible shrill sound. Lowering the treble response helps, but then you lose detail. The sound is also grey and fairly distant. And this is the remaster! Was the original actually worse? The performance itself is capable, but doesn't say anything special about the music.

RATTLE
Rattle has good sound, and at first his distinctive touches highlight unnoticed details and make the music sound fresh, although somewhat fragmented. But cumulatively the effect is artificial, especially with the last movement, which is just infuriating in its waywardness. It's a very interesting recording as far as interpretation goes, but ultimately not pleasurable.


So there you have it! I look forward to seeing how my own assessment compares with the result of the poll.

Bertini has always been one of my favourites. He's in the bunch with Gielen, Chailly, Bernstein and, occasionally, Honeck, Gilbert and Haitink. Fischer starts to grab my attention too.

[Sergeant Rock]

None of them must-haves like Neumann, Boulez, Chailly (if only for the sound), and Kubelik, though.

Those are my favorite M5s too, with the cool and razor-sharp Dohnányi rounding out a Top 5.

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

I agree it is not easy to find a great Fifth...or at least a Fifth that satisfies one personally, and completely. It took me 18 attempts (including Lenny and Barshai) before I found one a few years ago I really liked (Neumann). But since then I've discovered a string of winners; a veritable flood:

I really like the Neumann 5th, too. Jens pointed me that way, and to Stenz, too, which also is quite good. Boulez's is good. Chailly's is good. And so are Schwarz, Shipway, an Gatti. I like MTT & Sinopoli as well. And that's the "problem" with the 5th: There are so many good ones--well-played, well-recorded, and more than satisfying! Among such a fine lot, which, if any, stands out as extraordinary, when the ordinary is so very good?

My favorite "Golden Age" 5th, as usual, is Barbirolli's, this time with the Philharmonia. Perhaps I'm overdue to hear that one again, for if any of the many very good 5ths I know have the unique and compelling character necessary to distinguish itself as "extraordinary" along with Lenny & Rudy's, it's probably Sir John's. I don't know the Dohnanyi/CO disc, however, and since it seems so unlikely yet Sarge likes it so much it must be worth hearing, even discounting for his bias toward Cleveland (as others no doubt discount for my bias toward SF ).

[Brian]

Looking at the three versions I have to hand, timings are:

Bertini       34:03
Rattle        33:36
Tennstedt 33:16

- so Stenz seems to be in the average range. I must say, my impression of Bertini is that he was generally too slow in this symphony, but I haven't listened to that performance for a while (perhaps today's the day?).

That was the odd thing. When I looked at my collection, Stenz was the slowest guy in it, for that movement. How I got the impression that it was a fast performance is a little odd - maybe it's the rigidity of tempo throughout, that he doesn't speed up for some things and then hit the brakes for other things.

[jlaurson]

I don't know the Dohnanyi/CO disc, however, and since it seems so unlikely yet Sarge likes it so much it must be worth hearing, even discounting for his bias toward Cleveland (as others no doubt discount for my bias toward SF ).

My thoughts exactly.
I know I'll be adding it to my collection. 



G.Mahler
Symphony No.5
Dohnányi
Cleveland Orchestra
Penguin Classics

[DavidRoss]

Just finished Barbie's M5. Oh, yeah...go to the head of the class! (At least until the next time I hear another of my faves!)

[Karl Henning]

G.Mahler
Symphony No.5
Dohnányi
Cleveland Orchestra
Penguin Classics

Hm, that link takes me to Beethoven played by the Quatuor Mosaïques

[Karl Henning]

. . . I don't know the Dohnanyi/CO disc, however, and since it seems so unlikely yet Sarge likes it so much it must be worth hearing, even discounting for his bias toward Cleveland (as others no doubt discount for my bias toward SF ).

My thoughts exactly.
I know I'll be adding it to my collection. 

This is a party I am chronically late to. I have only recently loaded up the [rest of] symphonies from the DG box.

Sarge's post here has driven me, too, the the Marketplace ; )

[DavidRoss]

My thoughts exactly.
I know I'll be adding it to my collection. 

This is a party I am chronically late to. I have only recently loaded up the [rest of] symphonies from the DG box.

Sarge's post here has driven me, too, the the Marketplace ; )

Sarge's description of Dohnányi as "cool and razor-sharp" sounds probable and in high-relief contrast to the 3 Bs--Barbirolli, Barshai, & Bernstein, none of whom are remotely cool. If you ever refer to Tony Duggan as a guide to Mahler recordings, it helps to note that he doesn't much like "cool" and much prefers his Mahler "hot" (but not overcooked), thus his dismissal of Dohnányi's Mahler as "an empty vessel" might be taken with several grains of salt.

Glad you're giving old Gus more of a try, Karl. Even though he's a bit longwinded, he's still one of the best, head and shoulders above his romantic predecessors. Just steep yourself in turn-of-the-century Viennese Weltschmaltz and settle in for the ride.

[Karl Henning]

I like that conflation of Schmaltz and Weltschmertz, Dave!

[mahler10th]

 
Oh God, no!  No, no, nay I say unto thee!
It has been mentioned above.
The return of Bertini...             

[trung224]

  I think in all Mahler's symphonies, the fifth is the easiest symphony to appreciate and therefore has so many good-to-great performance. Alongside with the first, the fifth is only Mahler's symphony I can hear and enjoy all the time (some symphonies like the Second, Sixth and Ninth is too much emotional, turbulent, and dark)
   My favorites are
1. Barshai (contrapunctual, clarity texture with the best finale, full of joy)
2. Barbirolli (gentle but heart-feel)
3. Tennstedt (the live one on EMI Mahler's box or DVD, which has extreme tempo and emotion, turbulent and hysterical quality, but feel more natural than Bernstein with VPO)
4. Shipway (overall conception is similar with Karajan's performance, but much more involved and expressive, less homogenial)

the best recent Mahler 5 IMHO are from Stenz and Gergiev, but none of them can compete with the best in the past. Stenz is too straightformard though still imaginative, Gergiev is too wayward

[DavidRoss]

I like that conflation of Schmaltz and Weltschmertz, Dave!

I didn't want to insult anyone's intelligence by pointing out that it wasn't a typo, Karl!

[madaboutmahler]

1. Barshai (contrapunctual, clarity texture with the best finale, full of joy)
2. Barbirolli (gentle but heart-feel)
3. Tennstedt (the live one on EMI Mahler's box or DVD, which has extreme tempo and emotion, turbulent and hysterical quality, but feel more natural than Bernstein with VPO)
4. Shipway (overall conception is similar with Karajan's performance, but much more involved and expressive, less homogenial)

1) One that is often recommended to me, so I am very keen to hear it.
2) Due a listen soon!
3) Considering Tennstedt's 5th is the closest to being slightly disappointing in his box set I am currently exploring (concerning that set, I'm up to no.7 on the studio cycle), I shall be interested to see how his live performance compares.
4) Must admit that I have never heard of that conductor before.... maybe one I'll explore at some point!

As I normally mention, my absolute favourite in the 5th so far is Chailly and the Concertgebouw, this one is perfect for me. Out of all the other 5ths I have heard, no-one comes close! (IMHO)

[trung224]

1) One that is often recommended to me, so I am very keen to hear it.
2) Due a listen soon!
3) Considering Tennstedt's 5th is the closest to being slightly disappointing in his box set I am currently exploring (concerning that set, I'm up to no.7 on the studio cycle), I shall be interested to see how his live performance compares.
4) Must admit that I have never heard of that conductor before.... maybe one I'll explore at some point!

As I normally mention, my absolute favourite in the 5th so far is Chailly and the Concertgebouw, this one is perfect for me. Out of all the other 5ths I have heard, no-one comes close! (IMHO)

Shipway is an British and the music director of Sao Paolo Orchestra in Brazil, but he studied with Barbirolli and Karajan. He recorded only Mahler 5, Shostakovich 10 and Tchaikovsky 5, but everything he did is great.  His CDs are on budget price and you can buy easily on amazon. Surprisingly all my favorite Mahler 5 are very cheap (I bought the Barshai with only 5 Euro, Shipway 4 Euro, Tennstedt on EMI's Mahler box is only 22 Euro for 16 disc  )

[madaboutmahler]

   Shipway is an British and the music director of Sao Paolo Orchestra in Brazil, but he studied with Barbirolli and Karajan. He recorded only Mahler 5, Shostakovich 10 and Tchaikovsky 5, but everything he did is great.  His CDs are on budget price and you can buy easily on amazon. Surprisingly all my favorite Mahler 5 are very cheap (I bought the Barshai with only 5 Euro, Shipway 4 Euro, Tennstedt on EMI's Mahler box is only 22 Euro for 16 disc  )

Thank you for the feedback! I shall try and get hold of Shipway's M5 at some point.