Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Karl Henning]

Fascinating.  That was 1980, and well before the slouch into complacency.

[knight66]

No I am in the UK, what an odd arrangement! Well, the last two tracks may tempt you to explore the recording in more depth.

Mike

[jlaurson]

I used the link that Jens provided to his review of the Mahler 8 conducted by Ozawa. I have almost nothing by him; so the claim that this is THE best 8th available raised my eyebrows. I have quite a few sets, including many of the ones mentioned. In addition I have the Wyn Morris and live Tennstedt, both of which I rate highly. So, in scepticism I went to Spotify. Outcome, I have ordered the Ozawa and will now do a bit of delving into his legacy. Thanks Jens, a shock of the right kind. It is as you describe it and it it the impressive ebb and flow of the second movement that I enjoy so much.

Mike

That is very gratifying to hear, thanks much!!

[knight66]

That is very gratifying to hear, thanks much!!

My pleasure: what else from him do you think is especially fine?

Mike

[Pat B]

I doubt that all of those things are as objective as you think. I've been reading a fair few reviews of both Shostakovich and Mahler in the last week, and it's perfectly possible to get one reviewer saying that the playing isn't polished enough and another reviewer saying it's great that the playing has the passion and drama the music needs, about the exact same performance. One reviewer might complain that the horns go out of tune a bit when they're fortissimo, another reviewer might delight in the same thing because it conveys the ugliness they think the composer was trying to depict. We don't actually have a universally shared agreement about what's important to the quality of a performance of a given work.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I think we had a conversation very much along these lines in a blind listening test (possibly Ravel's Gaspard de la nuit?) because the things you were looking for were almost exactly the opposite of the things I was looking for. Our conceptions of what the music needed were poles apart.

I agree with Misha. Performances can be judged objectively. As we discussed recently in the Haydn thread, the objective aspects aren't always the most important, but they can always be described. However, some professional music critics aren't good arbiters of these things.

But I do also expect reviews to include a healthy dollop of subjective judgement, like the examples you gave. I consider delight in out-of-tune horns in some specific context to be a subjective judgement. That the horns are out of tune is objective; delighting in it is subjective.

[jlaurson]

My pleasure: what else from him do you think is especially fine?

Mike

I think Mahler, generally, saw him at his best (that I know of).

His M2, both in the Boston Cycle but also with the Saito Kinen Orchestra, I think highly of: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html

Boston #5 I have a memory of very much liking it...

Also the Saito Kinen M9: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html

His Prokofiev is controversial but beautiful. (Or controversial because of it.)

I think highly of his Turangalila... although there's much competition with many excellent versions.

[knight66]

I think Mahler, generally, saw him at his best (that I know of).

His M2, both in the Boston Cycle but also with the Saito Kinen Orchestra, I think highly of: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html

Boston #5 I have a memory of very much liking it...

Also the Saito Kinen M9: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html

Thanks, I will follow up the suggestions.

Mike

His Prokofiev is controversial but beautiful. (Or controversial because of it.)

I think highly of his Turangalila... although there's much competition with many excellent versions.

[MishaK]

As we discussed recently in the Haydn thread, the objective aspects aren't always the most important, but they can always be described. However, some professional music critics aren't good arbiters of these things.

Exactly. Sadly, few reviewers have the proper musical training to know what they are talking about. There are certain reviewers that routinely make me wonder whether they attended the same concert I did.

But I do also expect reviews to include a healthy dollop of subjective judgement, like the examples you gave. I consider delight in out-of-tune horns in some specific context to be a subjective judgement. That the horns are out of tune is objective; delighting in it is subjective.

Horns can sound 'ugly' in the sense of sounding brassy and rough (see e.g. Giardino Armonico in the Bach Brandenburgs), but they still shouldn't be out of tune. I don't think that is the quality that is being appreciated when delighting in the roughness of certain horns.

[Pat B]

I don't think that is the quality that is being appreciated when delighting in the roughness of certain horns.

You may be right. I have read many comments about intonation, with follow-ups that made it clear the author really meant tone.

ETA: though in the case of the Frère Jacques section of Mahler 1, I do like it to be a bit out of tune. In my response to orfeo I was imagining a dissonant effect (in Shostakovich, perhaps), but I can't think of any examples of that.

ETA: listening to Mahler 1 and I should say that it's one or two specific sections, not the entire 3rd movement.

[amw]

Mahler Update:
I liked No. 5, especially the finale, and all the ridiculous counterpoint (at many points i was like 'ok, are we really gonna do this? yeah, we're doing it'). The symphony doesn't stick as strongly in the memory as the finale of no. 3, but it's good fun and maybe I'll get a recording—definitely a thing I might want to listen to in the future.

No. 6 doesn't do much for me, still. It has its longueurs and the consistently angry passages in the outer movements reach the point of emotional exhaustion and 'inability to care'. Also I was following with the score and Dohnányi doesn't seem to emphasize the percussion parts enough, and uncharacteristically messes with dynamics and orchestration a lot, but maybe there's more than one edition, i don't know

[Pat B]

No. 6 doesn't do much for me, still. It has its longueurs and the consistently angry passages in the outer movements reach the point of emotional exhaustion and 'inability to care'. Also I was following with the score and Dohnányi doesn't seem to emphasize the percussion parts enough, and uncharacteristically messes with dynamics and orchestration a lot, but maybe there's more than one edition, i don't know

I know what you mean. 6 took me a while to get into. 7 even longer. Now, though, I love both.

[EigenUser]

I know what you mean. 6 took me a while to get into. 7 even longer. Now, though, I love both.

7 was somehow my favorite at first listen. I distinctly remember not liking 6, though, the first time I heard it. Now I love it almost as much as 7.

The finale of 7 is a bit odd, though still enjoyable. It seems over-inflated and strangely bombastic compared to the rest of the work (does anyone else get this?). Like Wagner's Meistersingers on steroids.

[Jay F]

Mahler's Sixth Symphony has been my favorite piece of classical music since the first time I heard it (1987), on Sony's first US CD release of Bernstein's version (green cover, released with the Eighth Symphony). I loved it immediately, and came to love the Eighth (I think) because the last movement of 6 rolled into the first of 8 on the middle CD. I've played those three CDs probably more than any other.

Perhaps because Bernstein's opening is so fast, I haven't ever really liked listening to other versions of the Sixth. I totally imprinted on it, and when I start another version, the first movement sounds off, and more often than not, I switch to Lenny. I'm more than happy to listen to any and all versions of my other favorites, Nos. 2, 3, 7, and sometimes 8. But not No. 6. It must be Bernstein's CBS/Sony version or it must go. There is an exception, however: I'm perfectly happy to land on anyone's version of the Andante.

[André]

Mahler's Sixth Symphony has been my favorite piece of classical music since the first time I heard it (1987), on Sony's first US CD release of Bernstein's version (green cover, released with the Eighth Symphony). I loved it immediately, and came to love the Eighth (I think) because the last movement of 6 rolled into the first of 8 on the middle CD. I've played those three CDs probably more than any other.

Perhaps because Bernstein's opening is so fast, I haven't ever really liked listening to other versions of the Sixth. I totally imprinted on it, and when I start another version, the first movement sounds off, and more often than not, I switch to Lenny. I'm more than happy to listen to any and all versions of my other three favorites, Nos. 2, 3, 7, and sometimes 8. But not No. 6. It must be Bernstein's CBS/Sony version or it must go. There is an exception, however: I'm perfectly happy to land on anyone's version of the Andante.

MY first exposure to the sixth was through Barbirolli's NPO version back around 1975. DUM  - DUM - DUM - DUM to Bernstein's or Solti's dumdumdumdum .... I've always favoured Barbi's or Farberman's gloom and doom visions because of that initial exposure.

[Jo498]

@Jay F: Have you heard Kondrashin/Melodiya in #6? I think he is overall even more aggressive than Bernstein (although maybe not quite as fast in the first movement and IIRC he skips the repeat).

[EigenUser]

Mahler's Sixth Symphony has been my favorite piece of classical music since the first time I heard it (1987), on Sony's first US CD release of Bernstein's version (green cover, released with the Eighth Symphony). I loved it immediately, and came to love the Eighth (I think) because the last movement of 6 rolled into the first of 8 on the middle CD. I've played those three CDs probably more than any other.

Perhaps because Bernstein's opening is so fast, I haven't ever really liked listening to other versions of the Sixth. I totally imprinted on it, and when I start another version, the first movement sounds off, and more often than not, I switch to Lenny. I'm more than happy to listen to any and all versions of my other three favorites, Nos. 2, 3, 7, and sometimes 8. But not No. 6. It must be Bernstein's CBS/Sony version or it must go. There is an exception, however: I'm perfectly happy to land on anyone's version of the Andante.

Agreed! I love Bernstein's opening.

MTT is pretty fast at the beginning. I was listening to his the other day (just parts of it). Some weird things happen just after the first hammer-blow in the finale, though (orchestra not quite together).

[Jay F]

MY first exposure to the sixth was through Barbirolli's NPO version back around 1975. DUM  - DUM - DUM - DUM to Bernstein's or Solti's dumdumdumdum .... I've always favoured Barbi's or Farberman's gloom and doom visions because of that initial exposure.

I don't think I've heard Farberman, but Barbirolli was one of the most disappointing, perhaps because I'd read such raves about it, and it took EMI a long time to release it on CD in the USA. After waiting so long, I was expecting or, more likely, hoping, to be blown away like the Maxell tape guy in the Le Corbusier chair, but it never got any more interesting than sitting and waiting for the bus.

@Jay F: Have you heard Kondrashin/Melodiya in #6? I think he is overall even more aggressive than Bernstein (although maybe not quite as fast in the first movement and IIRC he skips the repeat).

This is one I came to like about ten years ago, and I continue to listen to it from time to time.

Agreed! I love Bernstein's opening.

MTT is pretty fast at the beginning. I was listening to his the other day (just parts of it). Some weird things happen just after the first hammer-blow in the finale, though (orchestra not quite together).

Though MTT is not among my favorites in No. 6, I enjoy the sound quality of his Mahler cycle enormously when I listen to it on my iPhone (which I mention since you've mentioned you listen to classical at the gym). It's the only one I have on my iPhone, in fact.

[Marc]

MY first exposure to the sixth was through Barbirolli's NPO version back around 1975. DUM  - DUM - DUM - DUM to Bernstein's or Solti's dumdumdumdum .... I've always favoured Barbi's or Farberman's gloom and doom visions because of that initial exposure.

Barbirolli's 6th has been a steady favourite of mine, too.
IMO, he's making the work sound as it should sound like: WUCHTIG.

(I also like Glorious John's moaning and groaning. )

[xochitl]

shout-out to Farberman's 6th!

one of the few that still give me the heebie jeebies

[EigenUser]

Though MTT is not among my favorites in No. 6, I enjoy the sound quality of his Mahler cycle enormously when I listen to it on my iPhone (which I mention since you've mentioned you listen to classical at the gym). It's the only one I have on my iPhone, in fact.

Mahler's 6th is a favorite for the gym! I've set so many PRs to it .

Really, though, the strings and brass fall apart for a few seconds just after the first hammer. It's painfully noticeable. Seems fine other than that.