Rejected, then Embraced! And Vice-Versa!

[karlhenning]

I am sorry about my remarks about Sibelius, Tchaikovsky and Chopin. I can't help it their music does not mean to me what it used to.

That's all right, and especially when you put it like that.  It is comments that take your experience of the music, as somehow a property of the music — like that ghastly remark about Pyotr Ilyich supposedly having "little to offer for advanced listeners" — to which you will find that others, with very different experience of the same music, will take sharp objection, I believe.

[Cato]

That's all right, and especially when you put it like that.  It is comments that take your experience of the music, as somehow a property of the music — like that ghastly remark about Pyotr Ilyich supposedly having "little to offer for advanced listeners" — to which you will find that others, with very different experience of the same music, will take sharp objection, I believe.

Tchaikovsky for the advanced listener: The Manfred Symphony, Hamlet, and Francesca da Rimini!

71db: Dude, don't worry!  I will wager that some day you will return to Chopin, Sibelius, and Tchaikovsky with different ears, and will find new things there because of your deeper advancement into Music.

[greg]

I am sorry about my remarks about Sibelius, Tchaikovsky and Chopin. I can't help it their music does not mean to me what it used to. I don't have problems with Tchaikovsky and Chopin. I have problems with Sibelius, I dislike his use of orchestra and the national romantism.

Piano Concertos 1, 3 & 4

excellent stuff!!!
and make sure you don't forget #2, it may be found swimming around somewhere in your toilet

[Steve]

Tchaikovsky for the advanced listener: The Manfred Symphony, Hamlet, and Francesca da Rimini!

71db: Dude, don't worry!  I will wager that some day you will return to Chopin, Sibelius, and Tchaikovsky with different ears, and will find new things there because of your deeper advancement into Music.

I do agree. Perhaps a new, exciting recording of something you failed to connect with earlier?

[stingo]

Connection with a composer's emotional/musical language I think is key to embracing any of their works. Some works I've heard I could tell were very well written, but I did not understand/connect with what the composer was trying to convey, and thus had very little interest.

[71 dB]

Tchaikovsky for the advanced listener: The Manfred Symphony, Hamlet, and Francesca da Rimini!

I have never heard these works. Back then I didn't have this forum to advice me. Thanks!

[71 dB]

excellent stuff!!!
and make sure you don't forget #2, it may be found swimming around somewhere in your toilet

Toilet? 

I need to buy 2 & 5 (Naxos)

[Harry]

In a sense our friend 71Db adds lush colors to the forum, and therefore we must be grateful.
Right? Its one of his assets I like most.

[71 dB]

In a sense our friend 71Db adds lush colors to the forum, and therefore we must be grateful.
Right? Its one of his assets I like most.

That's a nice compliment Harry! I appreciate it!

Btw: dB, not Db, DB or db. 

[Grazioso]

Tchaikovsky
I call him the door into classical music. His music is easy and seductive but has little to offer for advanced listeners. I got bored of his music fast.

You assume you're an advanced listener in a position to judge. What makes you say that? I find that no matter how long I've listened to, played, and studied music, I'm always learning more, always becoming a better listener, always opening up to new musical experiences and reconsidering older ones. It's not like you can simply listen for X number of years and reach the "advanced" stage where you're suddenly an expert with infallible taste and extraordinary insight.

And getting bored with a piece can be as much a reflection of the listener as the music.

[gomro]

I am interested in reading if you have experienced an initial ho-hum, incomprehension, or even dislike toward a work, but then later you wondered how you could ever have had such a reaction!

When I was very young I found a recording of Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande at the library, and decided to give it a shot based on Schoenberg's Mahler connection.  The work made no sense to me: I was something of a prodigy in music at the time, and could not understand why I could follow a Bruckner symphony, or Beethoven's Opus 111, but not Pelleas und Melisande.  It gnawed my brain, for I knew that History had given Schoenberg a rightful place, and did not want to conclude that the problem lay with him!    0:)

A few months later I listened to the work again: Everything fell into place!  And it became one of my favorite works!  An "Aha!" moment came after weeks of perhaps subconscious mulling of what I had heard.

And I can pose the question the other way: which works did you initially embrace with great enthusiasm, but then decided for whatever reason to divorce yourself from?   

I listened several times to Stockhausen's Lichter-Wasser without any success or penetration into the thing, and had pretty much decided that it might be (--horrors!--) one of his duff pieces; then one day I was out painting the picket fence, of all things, and put it in for background music. One more chance, as it were. (Headphones, of course -- around here they'd call you the antichrist if something like Stockhausen came from your vicinity. I had to live down the name "Bela Lugosi" because I played Schoenberg's Variations on a Recitative where others could hear it...) Anyway, as I painted I suddenly realized that Lichter-Wasser had chosen that moment to reveal itself; the formulae unfolded in order, the melodies obvious, the form of the piece came clear.

It's now one of my recommended Intro-to-Stockhausen works.

[71 dB]

You assume you're an advanced listener in a position to judge. What makes you say that? I find that no matter how long I've listened to, played, and studied music, I'm always learning more, always becoming a better listener, always opening up to new musical experiences and reconsidering older ones. It's not like you can simply listen for X number of years and reach the "advanced" stage where you're suddenly an expert with infallible taste and extraordinary insight.

And getting bored with a piece can be as much a reflection of the listener as the music.

What I find disturbing on this forum is that fact that it is a crime to criticize any established composer but mocking less known composers is okay.  All Tchaikovsky works are supreme masterpieces and if the listener does not see that it is listener's fault. On the other hand, it's okay to totally ignore ALL works by such composers as Dittersdorf, Taneyev, Wolfrum, Bruhns, Fasch, Hasse, Torke and Rosenmüller to mention few. I apply exactly the same critisism to ALL composers because that's the right thing to do! I am not a fasist.

[karlhenning]

What I find disturbing on this forum is that fact that it is a crime to criticize any established composer but mocking less known composers is okay.

Well, if you're spooked by strawmen, that's your affair, laddie.

[Steve]

What I find disturbing on this forum is that fact that it is a crime to criticize any established composer but mocking less known composers is okay.  All Tchaikovsky works are supreme masterpieces and if the listener does not see that it is listener's fault. On the other hand, it's okay to totally ignore ALL works by such composers as Dittersdorf, Taneyev, Wolfrum, Bruhns, Fasch, Hasse, Torke and Rosenmüller to mention few. I apply exactly the same critisism to ALL composers because that's the right thing to do! I am not a fasist.

Either way, your comments should be substantiated with some justification. No one is preventing you from airing your preferences, but don't be alarmed when many people disagree. Attacking a canonical composer is difficult because vast numbers of people appreciate his work. While, you might believe that Chopin's music doesn't suit you, you have to understand that its in the standard repoitoire for a reason. While my opinion is no more valid than your's, by no means will that mean that you will have many members here who agree with you. Their thoughts are predicated on their experiences just as your's are.

Never confuse dislike with mockery. I may not appreciate some composers as wholeheartedly as you do, but I would never consider mocking their contributions to music.

[bwv 1080]

Attacking a canonical composer is difficult because vast numbers of people appreciate his work. While, you might believe that Chopin's music doesn't suit you, you have to understand that its in the standard repoitoire for a reason.

Yep, the standard University of Chicago line - the market is always right.

[Steve]

Yep, the standard University of Chicago line - the market is always right.

I believe you may have misinterpreted that quote. I simply meant that because it is in the repotoire, many people have come to appreciate it. I did not mean it to say that composers are in the canon because they are superior to others.

But, yes, on an unrelated note, the market is, indeed, always right 

[bwv 1080]

I believe you may have misinterpreted that quote. I simply meant that because it is in the repotoire, many people have come to appreciate it. I did not mean it to say that composers are in the canon because they are superior to others.

But, yes, on an unrelated note, the market is, indeed, always right 

Actually the canon is proof of how well markets work - the market in this sense being the collective wisdom of musicians and fans.  Mozart really is better than Dittersdorf

[Steve]

Actually the canon is proof of how well markets work - the market in this sense being the collective wisdom of musicians and fans.  Mozart really is better than Dittersdorf

I would agree with that point, but it's a far more contentious interpretation of my original post.

[Danny]

Bach Goldberg Variations
Schoenberg Piano and Violin Concertos
Mahler Second Symphony
Shostakovich Seventh Symphony
Prokofiev Violin Concerti
Brahms Symphonies

[Steve]

Bach Goldberg Variations
Schoenberg Piano and Violin Concertos
Mahler Second Symphony
Shostakovich Seventh Symphony
Prokofiev Violin Concerti
Brahms Symphonies

My list is actually quite similar. I only recently began to appreciate Schoenberg. Now that I've crossed that bridge, I've been on a bit of a binge.