Richard Strauss's house

Started by Bonehelm, March 24, 2008, 09:47:19 PM

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Lisztianwagner

Quote from: Lethevich on February 18, 2012, 11:29:19 AM
Die Frau ohne Schatten is one of his most pure creations - if you can endure Parsifal, it should be no problem.

I liked that expression, it made me laugh. ;D
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

madaboutmahler

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 18, 2012, 11:26:50 AM
Elektra is in some ways a natural next step. Since you liked this one with Solti/Nilsson, their Elektra makes no less a good recommendation. Rosenkavalier is a wonderful opera - since the music is somewhat familiar, this makes sense too. I'd go for either Karajan or Haitink. After that, I'd go for Arabella or Ariadne. In time, you'll need them all! :)

Thanks Neal. I'll probably go for Elektra next then, with the Solti recommendation. Will purchase it soon! :) Yes, will definitely need them all in time! By my love of Salome, I doubt it will be long until I feel the urge to purchase more! ;)

Quote from: Lethevich on February 18, 2012, 11:29:19 AM
Die Frau ohne Schatten is one of his most pure creations - if you can endure Parsifal, it should be no problem.

I haven't heard Parsifal yet... but Die Frau ohne Schatten does certainly look exciting, I was looking at the orchestration the other day, on wikipedia... Wow... :D

Will go for Elektra next. Then Der Rosenkavalier.
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Wanderer

Quote from: Lethevich on February 18, 2012, 11:29:19 AM
Die Frau ohne Schatten is one of his most pure creations - if you can endure Parsifal, it should be no problem.

Seconded. Don't neglect this one.

mszczuj

Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 18, 2012, 11:39:38 AM
Thanks Neal. I'll probably go for Elektra next then, with the Solti recommendation. Will purchase it soon! :) Yes, will definitely need them all in time! By my love of Salome, I doubt it will be long until I feel the urge to purchase more! ;)

I haven't heard Parsifal yet... but Die Frau ohne Schatten does certainly look exciting, I was looking at the orchestration the other day, on wikipedia... Wow... :D

Will go for Elektra next. Then Der Rosenkavalier.

Welcome in paradise!

Of course. I advice you to be as  close to natural chronology as possible. The indispensable works are Salome, Elektra, Der Rosenkavalier, Ariadne auf Naxos, Die frau ohne Schatten and I think you can't go better than listen it in this very sequence. Then there is Die aegyptische Helena you can omitted in now or not. It is rather strange - melodramatic and colourful but probably can't offer any deeper emotion.

Arabella is next indispensable.

Then again strange experiment Intermezzo. Very interesting in some sense but rather for devotees. (Nevertheless I find both Helena and Intermezzo more interesting than Eine Alpensinfonie).

Die schweigsame Frau is more intersting than Helena and Intermezzo. It is work of jewellery but you cant find in it emotion of those indispensables.

Friedenstag is the less interesting of all his operas and you can omit it and listen as last.

Than Daphne again absolute masterpiece. Die liebe der Danae is also very very good. And Capriccio again reaching the absolute.

So for me you must listen to  Elektra, Der Rosenkavalier, Ariadne auf Naxos, Die Frau ohne Schatten, Arabella, Daphne and Capriccio. and you may add to them Die liebe der Danae, Die schweigsame Frau, Intermezzo and Die aegyptische Helene (this is sequence of descending importance). Der Feuersnot, Guntram and Friedenstag are absolutely for later.

Another important aspect is literary preparation. Hugo von Hoffmanstahl was probably most accomplished writer who ever wrote for opera. And the theme is one of the greatest themes in history of European culture. I wholeheartedly recommend you to read The Oresteia of Aeschylus, Electra of Sophocles and Electra of Euripides before listening.

Lisztianwagner

#164
Here's another of my favourite composers....

Being a huge Karajan's fan, I was bound to become keen on Strauss' works, which were often recorded by the austrian conductor. ;D
Though, I absolutely adore R. Strauss' music, it is so thrilling and impressive, very lyrical and passionate; it is full of beauty, deep intensity and expressive power, and it often shows great virtuosity that involves the whole orchestra, creating incredibly haunting, touching movements and orchestral brilliance. Strauss' music displays a various style which often changes deeply from a composition to another one, that I appreciate anyway.
My favourite works are the tone poems, Oboe and Horn Concertos, and Vier letzte Lieder; about the operas, Salome, Elektra, Der Rosenkavalier and Die Frau ohne Schatten are surely wonderful.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

madaboutmahler

Quote from: mszczuj on February 18, 2012, 01:27:59 PM
Welcome in paradise!

Of course. I advice you to be as  close to natural chronology as possible. The indispensable works are Salome, Elektra, Der Rosenkavalier, Ariadne auf Naxos, Die frau ohne Schatten and I think you can't go better than listen it in this very sequence. Then there is Die aegyptische Helena you can omitted in now or not. It is rather strange - melodramatic and colourful but probably can't offer any deeper emotion.

Arabella is next indispensable.

Then again strange experiment Intermezzo. Very interesting in some sense but rather for devotees. (Nevertheless I find both Helena and Intermezzo more interesting than Eine Alpensinfonie).

Die schweigsame Frau is more intersting than Helena and Intermezzo. It is work of jewellery but you cant find in it emotion of those indispensables.

Friedenstag is the less interesting of all his operas and you can omit it and listen as last.

Than Daphne again absolute masterpiece. Die liebe der Danae is also very very good. And Capriccio again reaching the absolute.

So for me you must listen to  Elektra, Der Rosenkavalier, Ariadne auf Naxos, Die Frau ohne Schatten, Arabella, Daphne and Capriccio. and you may add to them Die liebe der Danae, Die schweigsame Frau, Intermezzo and Die aegyptische Helene (this is sequence of descending importance). Der Feuersnot, Guntram and Friedenstag are absolutely for later.

Another important aspect is literary preparation. Hugo von Hoffmanstahl was probably most accomplished writer who ever wrote for opera. And the theme is one of the greatest themes in history of European culture. I wholeheartedly recommend you to read The Oresteia of Aeschylus, Electra of Sophocles and Electra of Euripides before listening.

Thank you for your interesting feedback! Sounds like a good order of operas to me, so next it shall be Elektra! Looking forward to it. Fascinating suggestion to read Hoffmanstahl's literature, I'd certainly be interested to! Thank you once again!

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 18, 2012, 01:45:01 PM
Here's another of my favourite composer....

Being a huge Karajan's fan, I was bound to become keen on Strauss' works, which were often recorded by the austrian conductor. ;D
Though, I absolutely adore R. Strauss' music, it is so thrilling and impressive, very lyrical and passionate; it is full of beauty, deep intensity and expressive power, and it often shows great virtuosity that involves the whole orchestra, creating incredibly haunting, touching movements and orchestral brilliance. Strauss' music displays a various style which often changes deeply from a composition to another one, that I appreciate anyway.
My favourite works are the tone poems, Oboe and Horn Concertos, and Vier letzte Lieder; about the operas, Salome, Elektra, Der Rosenkavalier and Die Frau ohne Schatten are surely wonderful.

Beautiful description, Ilaria! :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 18, 2012, 02:42:17 PM
Beautiful description, Ilaria! :)

Thank you :) As you mention Strauss'operas, they are playing Die Frau ohne Schatten next March at Teatro alla Scala, I'm looking forward to seeing it!
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

knight66

I want to put forward a contrary view on the librettist. He was clever, but also something of a bore. He was over wordy and he and Strauss had disagreements over the tone of some of the work. I recall letters from Strauss suggesting that various elements of the libretti were too high flown. I think they worked best in Elektra, which is quite tight. In Rosenkavalier there is a tendency to verbosity and it is often performed with cuts.

A while ago I tried to establish whether any of Hofmannsthal's plays were ever performed in modern times. I drew a blank. He was much admired, but styles change. Perhaps this is a little like George Bernard Shaw, much admired in his time, his very wordy plays are now not much performed, though often referred to.

I echo the urging to go to the ancient source material.

Mike

DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

madaboutmahler

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 18, 2012, 03:01:06 PM
Thank you :) As you mention Strauss'operas, they are playing Die Frau ohne Schatten next March at Teatro alla Scala, I'm looking forward to seeing it!

That's great, Ilaria! I hope you enjoy it! As you know, I do not know the piece, but by looking at the orchestration alone I can tell it must be a pretty exciting piece to see! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Frau_ohne_Schatten#Instrumentation


Interesting points, Mike. I have not heard any of his libretti yet so cannot point out a opinion on the matter, but still found the post interesting. :) 

"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 19, 2012, 04:54:30 AM
That's great, Ilaria! I hope you enjoy it! As you know, I do not know the piece, but by looking at the orchestration alone I can tell it must be a pretty exciting piece to see! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Frau_ohne_Schatten#Instrumentation

Very kind, thank you Daniel! Yes, Die Fraus ohne Schatten is a beautiful piece and it's certainly worth seeing (but also only listening); you should have a listen to it in future as you seem to be so enthusiastic about Salome. ;)
Haha, Strauss' orchestration is always amazing......it only lacks the hammer and the cow bells. ;D
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

mszczuj

Quote from: knight66 on February 18, 2012, 03:13:03 PM
I want to put forward a contrary view on the librettist. He was clever, but also something of a bore. He was over wordy and he and Strauss had disagreements over the tone of some of the work. I recall letters from Strauss suggesting that various elements of the libretti were too high flown. I think they worked best in Elektra, which is quite tight. In Rosenkavalier there is a tendency to verbosity and it is often performed with cuts.

A while ago I tried to establish whether any of Hofmannsthal's plays were ever performed in modern times. I drew a blank. He was much admired, but styles change.

But you know I still remember the time when Hugo von Hofmannstahl was for me much more important than Richard Strauss.

I didn't write he was best librettist, or even he was best playwright who wrote for opera. But his literary culture and understanding of word was without any doubt exceptional. So I suppose he exactly knew what he was doing elaborating sophoclean version of the myth in this very way.

knight66

Oh, I am not trying to attack him. I was just putting an alternative view and I don't expect many would agree with me. I was explaining my thinking rather than responding to what you had written.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

madaboutmahler

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 19, 2012, 05:18:38 AM
Very kind, thank you Daniel! Yes, Die Fraus ohne Schatten is a beautiful piece and it's certainly worth seeing (but also only listening); you should have a listen to it in future as you seem to be so enthusiastic about Salome. ;)
Haha, Strauss' orchestration is always amazing......it only lacks the hammer and the cow bells. ;D

I shall definitely make sure to listen to it in the future! :)

Yes, no hammer! But remember in the Alpine Symphony, there are cowbells! :) And THUNDER MACHINE + WIND MACHINE!!! :D
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 19, 2012, 07:10:08 AM
Yes, no hammer! But remember in the Alpine Symphony, there are cowbells! :) And THUNDER MACHINE + WIND MACHINE!!! :D

Ah, sure, how could I forget it?!  :-[ ;D
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

mszczuj

Quote from: knight66 on February 19, 2012, 05:52:46 AM
Oh, I am not trying to attack him. I was just putting an alternative view and I don't expect many would agree with me. I was explaining my thinking rather than responding to what you had written.

Oh, he is not Shakespeare nor Goethe but he is known not only as librettist and he is a kind of writer who may be really liked by somebody who is interesting in history of literature. I suppose he was better as poet and writer of short prose not as playwright as this is the kind of works which were translated to my language.

eyeresist

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 19, 2012, 07:58:42 AM
Ah, sure, how could I forget it?!  :-[ ;D

What is that chill passing up and down my spine? The Ghost of Wind Machines Past......   ::)

mjwal

Quote from: knight66 on February 18, 2012, 03:13:03 PM
I want to put forward a contrary view on the librettist. He was clever, but also something of a bore. He was over wordy and he and Strauss had disagreements over the tone of some of the work. I recall letters from Strauss suggesting that various elements of the libretti were too high flown. I think they worked best in Elektra, which is quite tight. In Rosenkavalier there is a tendency to verbosity and it is often performed with cuts.

A while ago I tried to establish whether any of Hofmannsthal's plays were ever performed in modern times. I drew a blank. He was much admired, but styles change. Perhaps this is a little like George Bernard Shaw, much admired in his time, his very wordy plays are now not much performed, though often referred to.

I echo the urging to go to the ancient source material.

Mike
Actually, a couple of H's plays are fairly often produced in Austria and Germany - I remember seeing one famous production of Der Schwierige on German TV a few years ago. It is very charming, witty and subtler than anything by Shaw.  Jedermann gets played in Salzburg regularly. Elektra, by the way, was a great play before it was an opera - there is a recording of the first Elektra, Gertrud Eysoldt, a few minutes of howling madness that are beyond anything Strauss ever composed, and I say that as a Strauss lover. It is true that there are no actors who can do this today. Also Der Rosenkavalier is in many respects superior as a play to what Strauss made of it - it doesn't seem excessively wordy at all. Strauss only makes it seem so, if those normally practised cuts are opened and the singer (of Ochs, for instance) cannot compensate for the relative lack of inspiration.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

knight66

Thanks for that information and the opinion. I saw Rosankavalier in English last week. It had the standard cuts. The Ochs was a good actor, but much I like the piece, shorter would I think have been better. But then, it comes from a world that provided for more space to pontificate. Perhaps attention spans were better amongst theatre goers then than now.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Mirror Image

Really excited about these purchases:

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mc ukrneal

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 12, 2012, 06:45:27 PM
Really excited about these purchases:

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Should you want another version of this one, I'd highly recommend the Solti/Decca version (if you don't already have it).
Be kind to your fellow posters!!