Robert Simpson(1921-1997)

Started by Dundonnell, March 25, 2008, 02:09:14 PM

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vandermolen

Quote from: cilgwyn on July 29, 2018, 03:12:17 AM
Well,after a bit of lager last night I listened to Robert Simpson's Eighth. I was particularly interested in hearing it,since vandermolen disliked it so much. Well,the booze might have helped,but to my surprise I loved it. Yes,I did have some difficulty with following his argument,or train of thought (which might just be because I'm thick?! ::) ;D) but what grabbed me was the sounds coming from the orchestra. The sonorities,the,sometimes,almost bird like,chirruping of his woodwind (very Nielsenesque,but nothing wrong with that) and I don't mean in the pictorial sense. Above all,the thing that most impressed me the most,was his use of the brass section of the orchestra. I think some of the sounds I heard were some of the amazing I have ever heard coming from a symphony orchestra. The sounds are so sonorous and deep,they seem to blaze and boom. I'm not too keen on using this word,it sounds so teenage ("It's awesome,man!") but that is the word that came to mind. In terms of the sound world,and all that booming brass;it did make me think of the Ninth symphony,which I have known for some years. Yet,I think I prefer the Eighth because the score is more varied. I also liked the quieter moments. Simpson's moment of repose are particularly compelling,to my ears. Those moments of stillness,with just the string section,or plaintive,chirruping from the woodwind,which I referred to earlier. But his use of brass really makes this symphony stand out for me. Not sure about the underlying thread that holds it all together,or where some of it was going;but with such amazing noises coming from the brass section,who cares?! Oh,and one really astonishing bit where the brass seem to go into a mad,stamping rhythm,that repeats over and over again. I just wish I was a trained musician,so I could convey what I was hearing without sounding like a berk! :-[ ::) ;D

As to the First symphony. I was so taken by the eighth,which I played first (for the above reason) I didn't have as much time to spend on the First. That said,what I heard justifies all the positive reactions of those who admire this symphony. I need to have a separate listen to this symphony,now,before I can really pass comment. But it struck me that a symphony that good should be more widely performed. Again,I concentrated so much of my attention on the eighth. I need to listen to the first,'on it's own'.

NB: Some of his use of brass in the eighth symphony actually evoked a very unlikely bed fellow,Jon Leifs (those deep,booming sounds!)!!

I'm not sure that I've ever heard Symphony 8! It was Symphony 11 I was writing about above.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: cilgwyn on July 29, 2018, 03:12:17 AM
Well,after a bit of lager last night I listened to Robert Simpson's Eighth.

I think the scherzo and the slow mvt. of the 8th are excellent, some of Simpson's best symphonic writing. However, the first and last mvts. are not quite at that level, and I do think the finale goes on too long. Still, the 8th is quite an achievement.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

cilgwyn

Quote from: vandermolen on April 07, 2018, 11:25:32 PM
I will download 'Too Many Christmas Trees' on Amazon Video. I listened to Vernon Handley's recording of Simpson's First Symphony yesterday with much pleasure although I turned off No.8 after a few minutes. I read the other day that Boult's recording of Symphony 1 is superior in every way other than recording but I have enjoyed both versions enormously. I will have another listen to Symphony No.9 soon.
You listened to a few minutes of it!! :o ;D

relm1

Malcolm Macdonald told me once that Robert Simpson was very displeased with the Vernon Handley cycle.  I believe he preferred the Boult interpretations but Handley was the new digital cycle.  If you can find Boult's recording of No. 1, I would be interested in hearing it.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: cilgwyn on July 29, 2018, 03:12:17 AM
NB: Some of his use of brass in the eighth symphony actually evoked a very unlikely bed fellow,Jon Leifs (those deep,booming sounds!)!!

I hear some Havergal in certain parts too, for example, starting at 1:43 in the Scherzo (low brass against high winds). Reminds me of the Gothic's scherzo (the Vivace movement).

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

vandermolen

Quote from: cilgwyn on July 30, 2018, 03:37:52 AM
You listened to a few minutes of it!! :o ;D

So I did! You are quite right. Apologies (I seem to be apologising to lots of people today  8))
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

cilgwyn

Yesterday afternoon,I listened through symphonies 1-5,followed by 8 & 9 (I haven't 6,7,10 & 11,yet!!). I was exercising while listening to these symphonies and thinking it was strange workout music! ::) I also remember reading in an interview with Jerry Garcia (of the Grateful Dead) that he was exercising to Birtwistle's Earth Dances. He died not long after!from a heart attack! I was thinking,oh dear;and Robert Simpson's music can be pretty strenuous!! However,It does seem that Jerry Garcia had a number of issues that led to his early death. So it wasn't Bitwistle's fault (or Garcia,for exercising to it?!!) But maybe,some Delius next time?!! ::) ;D Anyway!!!! ::) I will admit that I do find the thread of Simpson's argument,a little difficult to follow,at times. I don't find the inexorable purpose and logic of say,Havergal Brian,in some of the symphonies. No's 2,4 & 8,are a case in point. That said,I do like the sound of his orchestration. His use of the brass section really is 'quite something',as the American's say. I also like his woodwind,which does remind me of Nielsen;but no harm in that,imho! I find the Fifth one of the easiest to follow,after the third;and I'm surprised that vandermolen has such difficulty with it. I love the stillness of that opening,and the way the symphony just seems to run out of energy at the conclusion,and go back to the stillness of the opening. There is an unfolding sense of purpose and logic there,which I do enjoy and admire. Simpson's interest in astronomy definitely springs to mind. There's something almost cosmic about it's birth and subsequent disintegration. I also enjoyed the Ninth,this time around. I had no difficulty in following it. I think it's a stunning creation. Maybe,a little too clever for it's own good,in some ways. It lacks the warmth of a Beethoven or Nielsen;but it's powerful statement. I particularly like the moment when it launches into that fast,lurching (lolloping) section (scherzo). (Which reminds of another favourite 'bit'. The finale to the Second symphony). I must admit,I didn't listen to the talk at the end. Once is enough,imho. With due respect to the late composer;if Hyperion reissue the cd,I think it would be better if they just released the symphony on it's own. Imho,the music speaks (quite adequately) for itself,and needs no such help!! ::) ;D

vandermolen

Quote from: cilgwyn on August 05, 2018, 02:10:34 AM
Yesterday afternoon,I listened through symphonies 1-5,followed by 8 & 9 (I haven't 6,7,10 & 11,yet!!). I was exercising while listening to these symphonies and thinking it was strange workout music! ::) I also remember reading in an interview with Jerry Garcia (of the Grateful Dead) that he was exercising to Birtwistle's Earth Dances. He died not long after!from a heart attack! I was thinking,oh dear;and Robert Simpson's music can be pretty strenuous!! However,It does seem that Jerry Garcia had a number of issues that led to his early death. So it wasn't Bitwistle's fault (or Garcia,for exercising to it?!!) But maybe,some Delius next time?!! ::) ;D Anyway!!!! ::) I will admit that I do find the thread of Simpson's argument,a little difficult to follow,at times. I don't find the inexorable purpose and logic of say,Havergal Brian,in some of the symphonies. No's 2,4 & 8,are a case in point. That said,I do like the sound of his orchestration. His use of the brass section really is 'quite something',as the American's say. I also like his woodwind,which does remind me of Nielsen;but no harm in that,imho! I find the Fifth one of the easiest to follow,after the third;and I'm surprised that vandermolen has such difficulty with it. I love the stillness of that opening,and the way the symphony just seems to run out of energy at the conclusion,and go back to the stillness of the opening. There is an unfolding sense of purpose and logic there,which I do enjoy and admire. Simpson's interest in astronomy definitely springs to mind. There's something almost cosmic about it's birth and subsequent disintegration. I also enjoyed the Ninth,this time around. I had no difficulty in following it. I think it's a stunning creation. Maybe,a little too clever for it's own good,in some ways. It lacks the warmth of a Beethoven or Nielsen;but it's powerful statement. I particularly like the moment when it launches into that fast,lurching (lolloping) section (scherzo). (Which reminds of another favourite 'bit'. The finale to the Second symphony). I must admit,I didn't listen to the talk at the end. Once is enough,imho. With due respect to the late composer;if Hyperion reissue the cd,I think it would be better if they just released the symphony on it's own. Imho,the music speaks (quite adequately) for itself,and needs no such help!! ::) ;D
Interesting observations, as always, cilgwyn. I must have another go with Symphony 5 which I think is on a Hyperion CD with Symphony 3, which I do admire and enjoy.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

cilgwyn

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 30, 2018, 06:42:49 AM
I hear some Havergal in certain parts too, for example, starting at 1:43 in the Scherzo (low brass against high winds). Reminds me of the Gothic's scherzo (the Vivace movement).

Sarge
Not sure where I heard Jon Leifs;but there is,certainly,some deep brass there?! I do hear a bit of Havergal Brian in part of the eighth. Brass with percussive,marching sounds,which evoked sounds from Brian's eighth.
Regarding the Fifth! Of course,I was merely encouraging vandermolen to have yet another shot! Do I think it will alter his opinion? Answering myself ( ???),probably not?!! ;D The Ninth seeming to build up in a blazing arc,or monolith,of sound,with a fast bit (referenced in my previous post). It's not too difficult to follow,imo;but if it doesn't appeal,it doesn't appeal! You can't force yourself to like or enjoy something,if you don't!! The Fifth strikes me as following a fairly straightforward trajectory,even for a layman,like me. The sound world also seems to be more varied,than that of the monoloithic ninth,so I thought it might be worth another shot.......even if it's your last?!! ;D

It strikes me that even if you don't warm to these symphonies,they are an interesting puzzle. His command of the orchestra is certainly impressive. His use of the brass section and woodwind makes some intriguing and impressive sounds. You think to yourself? What is it about this that doesn't appeal to me? You might think,it's Nielsen without the tunes,as some people have described. But then,there's nothing wrong with being influenced by another composer,and you enjoy others who are?! You decide the music is cold,lacking in warmth. But then there are other composers,or compositions,you could describe as cold,but which you do enjoy or find interesting! And then there is the question of the scaffolding! Aha! It's the scaffolding?!! ;D And so it goes on!!!

As to me?! I think I'm going to put some on again,in a minute?! Must check out some of that "scaffolding" again!! ::) ;D

kyjo

There's one section in Simpson's 5th I really like - the brief, mysterious fourth movement (Canzone II). Other than that, I find it typically tough going...
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

cilgwyn

 ;D I put the Fifth symphony on,a bit later,after typing that post. I was thinking some of it is quite frantic in places. Phew!! ??? ;D But I do like the way it all seems to explode in this huge,almost manic (hyperactive?!) burst of energy,then fizzle out gradually (or disintegrate,might be a better word?) leaving just that stillness you hear at the beginning!

calyptorhynchus

Quote from: cilgwyn on August 05, 2018, 02:10:34 AM
Yesterday afternoon,I listened through symphonies 1-5,followed by 8 & 9 (I haven't 6,7,10 & 11,yet!!). I was exercising while listening to these symphonies and thinking it was strange workout music! ...

Funnily enough exercising is the time of day when i listen to most music. I do an hour of tai chi/kung fu most days, starting slow and working up to energetic. The moves i do are from different internal martial arts which means they are based on circulating Qi around the body. This nicely intersects with my aesthetic beliefs about music derived from Nielsen's comments about music having a current rumning through it and Simpson's elaboration of this discussing Nielsen and others.
So when i am listening the music's flow must flow with my exercises, if it doesn't i change to something else and diagnose the music as without flow.
And of course most early music through to classical has this flow, thereafter only the masters, culminating in Brian, Holmboe and Simpson.
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

JohnP

Quote from: cilgwyn on August 06, 2018, 01:48:58 AM
;D I put the Fifth symphony on,a bit later,after typing that post. I was thinking some of it is quite frantic in places. Phew!! ??? ;D But I do like the way it all seems to explode in this huge,almost manic (hyperactive?!) burst of energy,then fizzle out gradually (or disintegrate,might be a better word?) leaving just that stillness you hear at the beginning!

I read Simpson's description of that stillness as being like the part of yourself that remains quiet and uninvolved and watches you when you're upset

cilgwyn

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 06, 2018, 03:36:50 PM
Funnily enough exercising is the time of day when i listen to most music. I do an hour of tai chi/kung fu most days, starting slow and working up to energetic. The moves i do are from different internal martial arts which means they are based on circulating Qi around the body. This nicely intersects with my aesthetic beliefs about music derived from Nielsen's comments about music having a current rumning through it and Simpson's elaboration of this discussing Nielsen and others.
So when i am listening the music's flow must flow with my exercises, if it doesn't i change to something else and diagnose the music as without flow.
And of course most early music through to classical has this flow, thereafter only the masters, culminating in Brian, Holmboe and Simpson.
I'm starting to think Simpson's symphonies are actually great workout music!! ;D I must admit I've been using weights. A cast iron barbell and dumbells! I'm a bit of a coffee-holic,and I like the way the sets allow you to swig coffee in between!!!

At this point,I have to assume that I do like what I'm hearing. I think these symphonies are very interesting and I do like the sound of his orchestration. The brass and woodwind,in particular. The more I listen,the more I want to hear! In fact,I think I'm probably with you on this composer,calyptorhynchus?!! :)

calyptorhynchus

I'm sure i've said this before but Simpson's works for brass band are very approachable. As they are for brass band they are more tonal than his later orchestral works. To my mind they are even more organic than his orchestral
works because the medium is more homogenous; in the symphonies I hear the processes of the life being depicted, in these works I hear the ensemble as a living creature.

BTW does anyone know of other composers who wrote for bb? I know about Elgar's works for bb and Malcolm Arnold's, any others?
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

vandermolen

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 07, 2018, 01:21:36 PM
I'm sure i've said this before but Simpson's works for brass band are very approachable. As they are for brass band they are more tonal than his later orchestral works. To my mind they are even more organic than his orchestral
works because the medium is more homogenous; in the symphonies I hear the processes of the life being depicted, in these works I hear the ensemble as a living creature.

BTW does anyone know of other composers who wrote for bb? I know about Elgar's works for bb and Malcolm Arnold's, any others?

Holst's Moorside Suite is an example and he wrote two suites for Brass Band - there is a Vaughan Williams Variations for Brass Band. Miaskovsky's 19th Symphony and Morton Gould's 'West Point Symphony' are other examples I think.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

#376
I listened to Symphony 9 again last night. It has a sombre integrity about it which is impressive and the atmosphere of the work stayed with me afterwards. I much preferred it to Symphony 11. I'm inclined to agree with Johan (JZH) that symphonies 1,3 and 9 are the best ones, although I need to listen to some of the others.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

cilgwyn

You think you might actually be beginning to like it?!! ??? :o ;D

Interestingly,after I bought the cd,of the Ninth,again,a few weeks ago (I did have the cd once,but got rid of it!!) it was the one symphony of the four I listened to,that I didn't enjoy! Last time I put it on,I did enjoy the experience;although I skipped the 'talk'. Once is quite enough,and I feel the music speaks for itself!!
I'm starting to think that Simpson's symphonies have finally "clicked" with me (or maybe,it's the knee bone connected to thigh bone?!! ??? ;D)?!! Seriously,I am finding myself rather enthralled. I find some of them a bit difficult to follow,unlike say,Brian or Jones,but I love the sound of his brass and woodwind,in particular. And the fact they are a bit difficult to follow,but not too progressive,or dissonant (ie outside my musical comfort zone,I might say?) is part of the challenge,and an incentive to listen harder and more. I think his use of brass does mark him out from allot of other British composers. Arnold is an obvious comparison. His use of the brass is one of his signature characteristics (that "whooping" sound). It really does mark him out from the crowd. Holst's suites for Brass Band are magnificent,and amongst my favourite works by British composers. Also,I suppose Derek Bourgeois might be? I'm not too familiar with his work,but he has some admirers over at the Art Music Forum;and I know he has a reputation in some circles for his music for Brass. I quite like his 'Wine' Symphony,incidentally;and it probably deserves a commercial recording. Even if you don't like it,he deserves kudos for the idea! (If I was a composer I'd love to write a Beer or lager symphony!!! ::) ;D Although,I'd probably end up being too p***** to finish it (like Mussorgsky!!)) Going back to Arnold,I was looking at the 'adverts' for their other Arnold cd's,and thinking I wouldn't mind adding the Arnold on Brass cd to my collection. And you get him conducting the Padstow Lifeboat,I believe?! What more incentive?!!

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 07, 2018, 01:21:36 PM
BTW does anyone know of other composers who wrote for bb? I know about Elgar's works for bb and Malcolm Arnold's, any others?
George Lloyd's Tenth Symphony is for brass band.

In the second half of the 90s I listened to Simpson in a very thorough fashion, making notes about the symphonies I listened to. Those are all in Dutch, however. If I find the time, I'll try and translate them...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

krummholz

I just ran across this thread.

I have the Hyperion discs of all of the symphonies, from back before the boxed set existed, and all of the quartets from #7 onward. I have to admit I'm very ambivalent about this composer. I agree with Johan that his real strength is in long-range planning and in articulating the process by which material is developed. His material, by itself, is generally not very interesting - but that isn't a flaw in itself, many of Beethoven's themes were not very interesting in and of themselves. But there seems to be a dearth of human expression in much of his music - the word that came to mind for me was prosaic, as opposed to poetic. Not all of it, mind you, but enough that I don't find it easy to relate to many of his works.

That said, several of his symphonies and quartets really appeal to me. The 9th quartet is full of both cleverness and a very wide range of expression, the 14th quartet I feel to be perhaps the most beautiful thing he ever wrote, especially in the slow movement; and of the symphonies, I love the 9th and especially the 10th. Simpson's orchestration has been called dull and unimaginative, but in my opinion it is anything but. His sonorities are quite his own, especially the way he doubles the low brass with high woodwind at odd intervals of fifths and thirds plus several octaves, getting a gleaming, elemental, almost organ-like effect that no one else has conjured up out of the orchestra. This fingerprint is first evident in the 4th symphony and becomes increasingly prominent from the 6th onward.

I don't think the 10th has been mentioned yet in this thread - this is my favorite Simpson symphony, especially in the last two movements. The slow movement, like the scherzo it follows, is full of icy mystery and the finale is another of Simpson's studies of a specific Beethoven work, this time the finale of the Hammerklavier. It's much craggier than the Beethoven and full of sudden dynamic shifts and changes of direction. The ending usually has me jumping out of my seat.

The 11th a tribute to Holmboe? As the Dane is my favorite composer I must have another listen soon to see if I can hear this. It has never struck me that way though.