Robert Simpson(1921-1997)

Started by Dundonnell, March 25, 2008, 02:09:14 PM

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snyprrr

Quote from: Dundonnell on March 05, 2012, 07:16:44 PM
Good for you, Ilaria ;D

It is certainly refreshing to hear something like that. Positive comment, unlike "sterile and alienated" :(

Is it morning already over there? You're up early?

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: Dundonnell on March 05, 2012, 07:16:44 PM
Good for you, Ilaria ;D

It is certainly refreshing to hear something like that. Positive comment, unlike "sterile and alienated" :(

Thank you, Colin :)

I can't believe such a beautiful, powerfully emotional music like Simpson's one was described in that way.....sterile, alienated....not at all!
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

Dundonnell

Quote from: snyprrr on March 05, 2012, 08:21:03 PM
Is it morning already over there? You're up early?

No.....I go to bed very late ;D

J

#163
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 06, 2012, 03:25:10 AM
Thank you, Colin :)

I can't believe such a beautiful, powerfully emotional music like Simpson's one was described in that way.....sterile, alienated....not at all!

As I suggested once in another forum, for me a Simpson Symphony is like an enormous and brilliantly constructed architectural shell, - but with no life going on inside that one can participate in and respond to.  Walk around a bit and be impressed by the meticulous logic and precision of its engineering, or stand back and feel awe over the spectacle of its scale and grandeur.   But take a position at its center with the whole of oneself open to its force and impact, and prepare to have all your human sensibilities crushed rather than called to, - the weight and hardness and coldness of steel bearing down.  I've used a cosmic analogy (i.e. the architecture of the heavens) with different metaphors to describe my experience on occasion, but the communicated effect is similar.  Simpson's music appeals strongly to "isolated intellect" and "dissociated emotion".  That's what I mean when I call it sterile and alienated. 


madaboutmahler

I wouldn't agree. In my opinion, there are many heart-breakingly beautiful moments in Simpson that have almost reduced me to tears. Very emotional music. And so far I have only heard the 4th, 7th-9th symphonies! :)

I find your view and the way you express it interesting though.

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 05, 2012, 12:38:55 PM
I listened to some of Simpson's symphonies, plus the Violin Concerto, and I was quite impressed by their huge beauty and brilliance, absolutely stunning music! It's very expressive and dynamic, very powerful, but at the same time, also logical and well-structured.
He certainly became one of my favourite contemporary composers. :)

I too am really glad to hear that you are enjoying Simpson, Ilaria! I am too! :D
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: J on March 06, 2012, 10:02:52 AM
As I suggested once in another forum, for me a Simpson Symphony is like an enormous and brilliantly contructed architectural shell, - [interesting response snipped]

I see where you're coming from, and it's an interesting take, as Mad says. I actually find the impersonality and icy grandeur of the music attractive rather than repulsive. Occasionally one needs a break from human concerns.

I do think the 4th Symphony, at least, is a partial exception: more humor and "fun" in that piece than we usually get from this composer.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: J on March 06, 2012, 10:02:52 AM
As I suggested once in another forum, for me a Simpson Symphony is like an enormous and brilliantly contructed architectural shell, - but with no life going on inside that one can participate in and respond to.  Walk around a bit and be impressed by the meticulous logic and precision of its engineering, or stand back and feel awe over the spectacle of its scale and grandeur.   But take a position at its center with the whole of oneself open to its force and impact, and prepare to have all your human sensibilities crushed rather than called to, - the weight and hardness and coldness of steel bearing down.  I've used a cosmic analogy (i.e. the architecture of the heavens) with different metaphors to describe my experience on occasion, but the communicated effect is similar.  Simpson's music appeals strongly to "isolated intellect" and "dissociated emotion".  That's what I mean when I call it sterile and alienated.

I certainly understand your point of view, even if I wouldn't agree with it; on the basis of what I listened, I think Simpson's music is quite emotional and thrilling.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

calyptorhynchus

I think part of the problem for people complaining about Simpson's 'empty' or 'emotionless', or 'cold' music is that they don't understand the musical language of the C20. For some reason I can't fathom, most people's ideas of musical language seem stuck in around 1880. Once you realise that composers don't write this way any more, and music has been changing for another 140 years, then you can get a better idea of what composers are 'saying' and you can distinguish 'empty' ones properly. (For example, I have always thought Benjamin Britten was a quite 'empty' and 'heartless' composer).

Recently I did an experiment on my beloved spouse (musical tastes: country and western, rock, meditation music), Son #1 (not interested in music at all), Son #2 (musical tastes: grunge and heavy metal). I played them Simpson's String Quartet No.10 and asked them what they thought it meant: they came up with 'pain', 'agony', 'despair', and by this stage I was pulling my hair out and saying 'No, no. this is wonderful, heartfelt music, this is the music of the spheres, this is pure (non-religious) beatificity, this is calm certainty, this is the music that you listen to and at the end of it realise that there is everything still to do, but this is the reason why you will do it.'

I think I have some musical education to do at home.

The other problem with people not knowing the language of C20 music is that they fail to discriminate in pre-C20 because it all sounds mellifluous, so it must be OK? In fact just as in the C20 plenty of composers wrote ugly, soulless music, so did composers in the C19. If you don't know the language, you can't tell which C19 composers are duds either.

While we're talking Simpson chamber works, though, what about the String Quintet No.1? This is one of my favourite Simpson works, and one which I'm sure that even people not attuned to C20 music can appreciate. If you listen to it without knowing who wrote it, as Simpson encouraged listeners to do in one of his own Radio 3 shows, you might even think it was written by an English composer of the pastoral school, the next generation after (Simpson did study under Herbert Howells).
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 06, 2012, 05:58:20 PM
I think part of the problem for people complaining about Simpson's 'empty' or 'emotionless', or 'cold' music is that they don't understand the musical language of the C20. For some reason I can't fathom, most people's ideas of musical language seem stuck in around 1880. Once you realise that composers don't write this way any more, and music has been changing for another 140 years, then you can get a better idea of what composers are 'saying' and you can distinguish 'empty' ones properly. (For example, I have always thought Benjamin Britten was a quite 'empty' and 'heartless' composer).

A related issue IMHO is that Simpson used the old forms (symphony and string quartet) - he was possibly the most literally-minded neo-classicist in regard to form - but he uses this rather harsh and astringent language. Therefore people who expect a symphony or quartet to sound a certain way (like Beethoven or Brahms or whoever) might be put off by the harsh style.

In this way, Simpson is similar to Hindemith. I've heard the same charges leveled at both composers.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

J

Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 06, 2012, 10:07:22 AMIn my opinion, there are many heart-breakingly beautiful moments in Simpson that have almost reduced me to tears. Very emotional music.

You do realize, I assume, that Simpson would have been horrified by such a confession had he known. :o

madaboutmahler

Quote from: J on March 07, 2012, 07:58:17 AM
You do realize, I assume, that Simpson would have been horrified by such a confession had he known. :o

Why do you think that Simpson was so against emotion in music?!

Does anyone else agree with me that a lot of Simpson contains some really beautiful, haunting, emotional music?!

"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 07, 2012, 09:49:22 AM
Why do you think that Simpson was so against emotion in music?!

Does anyone else agree with me that a lot of Simpson contains some really beautiful, haunting, emotional music?!

I agree with you, Daniel; Simpson's music can certainly be powerfully emotional, thrilling and full of beauty. It definitely touches me when I listen to it.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

madaboutmahler

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 07, 2012, 09:58:52 AM
I agree with you, Daniel; Simpson's music can certainly be powerfully emotional, thrilling and full of beauty. It definitely touches me when I listen to it.

I am glad that you agree with me, Ilaria! Simpson's music really touches me too.

Obviously it is meant to be 'intellectually' challenging, but emotionally too I think. Really beautiful to whoever enjoys it! :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

J

#173
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 03, 2012, 02:53:54 PM
I asked Malcolm MacDonald, who knew Simpson well, to comment on my lengthy post above and, in particular, about the issue of emotion and warmth in Simpson's music.
Malcolm confirmed that Simpson was extremely wary of demonstrating in music the emotion which he in reality felt and that 'warmth' was frequently turned into the 'heat' of his louder
music.

Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 07, 2012, 09:49:22 AM
Why do you think that Simpson was so against emotion in music

If not against, apparently he was quite "wary" of it (see Colin's reference to Malcolm MacDonald on this topic above)  and almost certainly not something he strove after.  But more meaningful would be discriminating the "kind" of emotion one might experience in Simpson's music.  I would contend it is almost entirely dis-passionate emotion (not a criticism), - or even dissociated.  But this needs elaboration, and in any case might be entirely projection on my part, if not sophistry.

J

#174
Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 06, 2012, 10:07:22 AM
In my opinion, there are many heart-breakingly beautiful moments in Simpson that have almost reduced me to tears. Very emotional music. And so far I have only heard the 4th, 7th-9th symphonies! :)

Could you reference some/any of these "heart-breakingly beautiful moments" in Symphonies 4, 7, and/or 9
where you experience them (i.e. time intervals when you feel them coming on, peaking, and then dissapating,
- all, of, course, within the context of the whole), - or is this too calculating a request in regards to such a spontaneous happening?

I've never come anywhere close to crying while listening to a Simpson Symphony, and can't even imagine such a phenomenon, - though I don't doubt your words (or only a little).

Dundonnell

#175
I very much hope that Malcolm MacDonald does not mind me quoting exactly what he wrote about this aspect of Simpson's music in his private communication with me:

"Emotion certainly isn't absent from the music, but he seems to have had a horror of being accused of (or lapsing into) sentimentalism. The 'warmth' is there, though often converted into the 'heat' of his fast and angry movements, but he seems to have preferred that otherwise it should seep out from the tissue of the music, not at any particular spot but overall, to be appreciated by those with ears to hear. It's surely significant that he withdrew the original version of the slow movement of Symphony No. 4 - a more overtly warm and emotional piece than its replacement. In either version, No. 4 is certainly among my favourites of the symphonies".
[/b

The difference Malcolm sees in Simpson's perception would be between 'emotionalism' and 'sentimentalism'.

The other difference-it seems to me-is between the emotional content or context(if any) which the composer perceived in his music and an emotional reaction to that music in, at least certain, of his listeners. If one is 'affected' in some way by the music, whether its compositional structure, which may be an intellectual response or an intellectual/emotional response, or an aesthetic reaction to the sounds one is hearing (which is, largely, my own experience) then does it ultimately matter what the composer intended ??? If the listeners who find beauty (or terrifying and imposing grandeur) in the music respond in that fashion then I have no problem or issue with that.

.......and if Simpson would have been horrified by such an 'emotional reaction' then tough ;D

(Sorry the only bit of this post that is supposed to be in bold is Malcolm's quote but I don't know how to "unbold" text :-[)

madaboutmahler

Quote from: J on March 07, 2012, 11:17:15 AM
Could you reference some/any of these "heart-breakingly beautiful moments" in Symphonies 4, 7, and/or 9
where you experience them (i.e. time intervals when you feel them coming on, peaking, and then dissapating,
- all, of, course, within the context of the whole), - or is this too calculating a request in regards to such a spontaneous happening?

I've never come anywhere close to crying while listening to a Simpson Symphony, and can't even imagine such a phenomenon, - though I don't doubt your words (or only a little).

Well, first of all I'd like to make it clear that I have only heard each of these works just once. I shall be listening to them all again soon when I own the symphony box set, which I shall be getting this Saturday for my birthday (I hope! ;) )

Moments that I remember being particularly beautiful include: the slow movement from the 4th, which is extremely lyrical and I remember it having a particularly expressive cello solo at the beggining. The whole symphony is beautiful to me as it is so incredibly haunting, the final bars of the symphony with the unison note in violins left me speechless and with a sense of despair. In the 9th, a particular moment not long after the end of the scherzo after that massive buildup was extremely powerful and the theme (I think in the oboe) that followed was highly melodic and poetic.

Sorry, these are not too detailed or precise, but these are just my memories of my initial thoughts on hearing the symphonies for the first time. I shall report back with more detail once I have given them another play through.
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

calyptorhynchus

Re RS and his views on 'sentmentalism', I remember being very struck when I saw a BBC TV program about Deryck Cooke and his performing version of Mahler's 10th (this was around 1989). Amidst all the people interviewed who were 100% of the view that the symphony was a masterpiece, RS appeared and said he thought the flute melody in the last movement was an example of 'sentimentality'.

I also read more recently his view of parts of the second movement of Mahler's 8th being 'hundreds of bars of shameless schmalz' (or words to that effect). I think I'd tend to agree more with this opinion. :D
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Slightly to my surprise (since I've known the work for years but hadn't paid much attention until now), I've become hooked on the 3rd String Quartet, specifically the second of its 2 movements. What grabs me is not just the usual structural rigor I expect from this composer, but also a wild "Central European" sound in parts, like something out of Bartok or Janacek. Maybe I'm hallucinating, but I don't think I'd noticed this before; it sounds unusual for Simpson.

While we're on the subject, what are people's favorites among the quartets? The 9th has been mentioned, and I already like 3 and 6, but I'd like to get some feedback on the others.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

snyprrr

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 06, 2012, 05:58:20 PM
I think part of the problem for people complaining about Simpson's 'empty' or 'emotionless', or 'cold' music is that they don't understand the musical language of the C20. For some reason I can't fathom, most people's ideas of musical language seem stuck in around 1880. Once you realise that composers don't write this way any more, and music has been changing for another 140 years, then you can get a better idea of what composers are 'saying' and you can distinguish 'empty' ones properly. (For example, I have always thought Benjamin Britten was a quite 'empty' and 'heartless' composer).

Recently I did an experiment on my beloved spouse (musical tastes: country and western, rock, meditation music), Son #1 (not interested in music at all), Son #2 (musical tastes: grunge and heavy metal). I played them Simpson's String Quartet No.10 and asked them what they thought it meant: they came up with 'pain', 'agony', 'despair', and by this stage I was pulling my hair out and saying 'No, no. this is wonderful, heartfelt music, this is the music of the spheres, this is pure (non-religious) beatificity, this is calm certainty, this is the music that you listen to and at the end of it realise that there is everything still to do, but this is the reason why you will do it.'

I think I have some musical education to do at home.

The other problem with people not knowing the language of C20 music is that they fail to discriminate in pre-C20 because it all sounds mellifluous, so it must be OK? In fact just as in the C20 plenty of composers wrote ugly, soulless music, so did composers in the C19. If you don't know the language, you can't tell which C19 composers are duds either.

While we're talking Simpson chamber works, though, what about the String Quintet No.1? This is one of my favourite Simpson works, and one which I'm sure that even people not attuned to C20 music can appreciate. If you listen to it without knowing who wrote it, as Simpson encouraged listeners to do in one of his own Radio 3 shows, you might even think it was written by an English composer of the pastoral school, the next generation after (Simpson did study under Herbert Howells).

Perhaps SQ 10 was the wrong choice? Why didn't you play them Sym 9? I can to RS looking for the Penguin Guide Holy Grail, and, surely, Sym 9 delivered the goods,... but I specifically remember the disc with SQs 10-11. Isn't 10 called 'For Peace', or something? Well, when i first heard it in my ignorance, I can tell you there was nothing peaceful in all the cd, no matter what PG had said!! >:D The PG caused me to rabbit-hole the entire Simpson catalog looking for that elusive second hit (never got to Syms 10-11). I was especially crushed by the String Quartets.

Always, always be wary of letting 'earth people' listen to 'our' music. If you think it's beautiful, they'll think it's creepy; if you think it's peaceful, they'll think it's despairing; if you hear the cosmos, they hear hell. I'm tellin' ya, if you like the way your music makes YOU feel, don't ruin that special intimate relationship by 'throwing pearls to the swine' (not callin yer family... ;D). It's just the way it is. Everyone needs to come to RS by their OWN way. It's like making someone read the Bible,... the unintended consequences can be more than you bargained for. I can only imagine that your 'weird' factor with your family just went up, haha,.. perhaps they're talking about you in the other room, "Dad thinks THAT was good? He's so old, haha!!" Just ribbin' ya.

Frankly, there is some Xenakis (Emprientes, Echange) which does an equally good job at illuminating the cosmos.