Diabelli Variations

Started by Holden, March 29, 2008, 03:55:03 PM

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staxomega

#120
Updated favorites (used to only like Serkin on Columbia or BBC), in no particular order:

R. Serkin (Columbia and BBC)
Brautigam
Kovacevich* live (Onyx)
Gulda (Harmonia Mundi France)
Schnabel - uneven but much to like, a smiling performance (edit: removed part on transfers, it was some of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas I found superior on Pearl, I will have to revisit the Pearl transfers for Diabelli Variations)

*never understood what was special about his Philips recording other than sounding much better than Serkin on Columbia when these might have been the two major label releases widely available to people.

Quote from: Mandryka on November 04, 2013, 01:33:06 AM
Hans Petermandl

Petermandl interests me most based off his AoF and leser extent Ludus Tonalis. Possibly a maverick outing with some ideas.

Holden

Quote from: hvbias on May 11, 2022, 05:07:54 PM
Updated favorites (used to only like Serkin on Columbia or BBC), in no particular order:

R. Serkin (Columbia and BBC)
Brautigam
Kovacevich* live (Onyx)
Gulda (Harmonia Mundi France)
Schnabel - uneven but much to like, a smiling performance (IMO still has to be heard on the Pearl transfer, the Naxos dampens the high end too much making this more forgettable than it really is)

*never understood what was special about his Philips recording other than sounding much better than Serkin on Columbia when these might have been the two major label releases widely available to people.



Whereas I prefer the Philips out of the two. It was a top choice for me for quite a while along with the Schnabel but at that stage there wasn't a wide choice of Diabelli recordings. As the CD catalog expanded to include some not previously released from LP to CD the choice expanded and my favourites changed.

I ended up adding Rudolf Serkin (Columbia Masterworks) that I found in a second hand bin and also his M&A recording from the 1954 Prades festival. I also added the Philips Arrau that I had to send away for on line. I also included Richter but I'm not sure I got the best one from a selection of recordings from both 1970 and 1986. He certainly has something to say in this work. I have a number of other recordings that I've listed in a previous post
Cheers

Holden

Jo498

Quote from: hvbias on May 11, 2022, 05:07:54 PM
Updated favorites (used to only like Serkin on Columbia or BBC), in no particular order:

R. Serkin (Columbia and BBC)
The Columbia is also live, isn't it?

Did you try the "excentrics", like Mustonen, Ugorski, maybe (not quite as weird) Anderszewski? Or Sokolov who is not really excentric but rather slow and massive.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Holden

Quote from: Jo498 on May 12, 2022, 12:16:49 AM
The Columbia is also live, isn't it?

Did you try the "excentrics", like Mustonen, Ugorski, maybe (not quite as weird) Anderszewski? Or Sokolov who is not really excentric but rather slow and massive.

Yes, I just had a look - Serkin, Marlborough Festival 1957.

I've got the Sokolov and find it ponderous. The Ugorski left me with a "WTF"?
Cheers

Holden

André



Just purchased. Any opinion on this recording ? Thanks !

San Antone

Rudolf Buchbinder | The Diabelli Project



"Celebrated pianist and renowned Beethoven specialist Rudolf Buchbinder releases his first album on Deutsche Grammophon. The collaboration includes not only his own new interpretation of Beethoven's Diabelli Variations but he has also commissioned 12 new variations, just as Anton Diabelli did in 1819 and has recorded 8 variations of those that Diabelli received back from the composers he wrote to back then." (DG)

This is m latest recording of this work that I have been enjoying.  Buchbinder also released a book centered on the DV, as well as describe his musical journey.  Both the recording and the book are well worth listening to and reading.

staxomega

#126
Quote from: Jo498 on May 12, 2022, 12:16:49 AM
The Columbia is also live, isn't it?

Did you try the "excentrics", like Mustonen, Ugorski, maybe (not quite as weird) Anderszewski? Or Sokolov who is not really excentric but rather slow and massive.

Ugorski is too bizarre. I agree with Holden on Sokolov (Naïve, in case there is another), too ponderous. I haven't heard Mustonen or Anderszewski.

Quote from: Holden on May 11, 2022, 05:34:55 PM
Whereas I prefer the Philips out of the two. It was a top choice for me for quite a while along with the Schnabel but at that stage there wasn't a wide choice of Diabelli recordings. As the CD catalog expanded to include some not previously released from LP to CD the choice expanded and my favourites changed.

I ended up adding Rudolf Serkin (Columbia Masterworks) that I found in a second hand bin and also his M&A recording from the 1954 Prades festival. I also added the Philips Arrau that I had to send away for on line. I also included Richter but I'm not sure I got the best one from a selection of recordings from both 1970 and 1986. He certainly has something to say in this work. I have a number of other recordings that I've listed in a previous post

Thanks for mentioning Arrau Philips, I heard this some 20+ years ago in the Philips box but I don't think I've played it since then. My fuse is quite short with Diabelli Variations.

Todd




Mitsuko Uchida's pianism has never really worked for me.  There is absolutely no questioning her pianistic ability.  She belongs to the elite of the elite in terms of pretty much every aspect of playing.  On record she delivers what she wants to deliver, or at least that has been the case in what I have heard.  It's just that what she delivers doesn't click.  Which seems strange.  I generally prefer strongly individual pianists, ones who highlight specific aspects of well-known scores and who inject personal touches aplenty.  Uchida does that.  But for me, she often just sounds fussy.  Even that is not a problem, really.  András Schiff's earlier recordings often sound fussy, but I adore his fussiness.  All that's OK.  I don't have to like everything.  To be sure, her late Beethoven sonatas are pretty good, and her concerto cycle with Simon Rattle surprised me a bit with its overall musical quality.  But nothing prepared me for this

One hears what's special about this recording in the opening bars of the theme.  Uchida's control of dynamics approaches Volodosian quality, and it remains throughout the work.  Her ability to perfectly move from piano to forte in a smooth, perfectly controlled fashion, almost as though a perfect volume control is being used, amazes.  And it ain't no studio trick.  She does it all the time throughout the recording.  That's just one trick.  Another is her perfect delivery of sforzandi.  She'll cruise along playing in lovely, rounded fashion, then blam!, her playing hits the listener right between the eyes.  Each time, every time, start to finish in the work.  Damn, damn, damn. 

Uchida's super-fine tempo control and rhythmic delivery may be better yet.  She delicately front-loads or back-loads phrases to perfection, applying the minutest accelerations or decelerations to giddiness inducing effect.  An early culmination of this is the sixth variation, which undulates in a way such that one starts to bob one's head to the left hand playing only to be pleasantly interrupted by the right hand playing.  In the ninth variation, as she reaches the first climax and then abruptly and flawless backs off, one can't help but silently (or not) say "woo".  Uchida follows that up with a most playful yet serious tenth variation, perfectly measured, not sounding spontaneous, but not sounding not spontaneous. 

Then things get even better as her fussiness manifests itself in a gloriously micromanaged eleventh variation, where each individual note sounds absolutely flawless.  Lucky number thirteen, with its ridiculous pauses and thundering notes alternating with gentle playing, sounds informed by Opp 106 and 126.  I mean, yeah.  The refined to the Nth degree rough playing of the sixteenth and seventeenth variations charms in a faux gruff manner, and the latter presents a dilemma to the listener – follow the left hand or the right hand more closely?  The obvious answer is to listen again. 

The twentieth variation, in its serenity and depth, reminds the listener that this is late Beethoven, and the Notte e giorno faticar variation sounds so exaggerated yet so controlled that one can't help but be amused at its humor or notice its spiritual connection to the second movement of 31/1.  The late LvB soundworld reappears in force in the twenty-fourth variation, which reminds the listener of the Bachian/Handelian passage in the slow movement of Op 126.  And that left hand playing in the twenty-sixth variation!  The great, slow Largo (number thirty-six) stands as the apotheosis of late-LvB soundworld music in this recording, approaching Op 110 levels of rarefication.  The final variation almost seems to be Beethoven reminding everyone that he was at the time the master of the art of fugue.  The way Uchida rumbles out the lower register playing makes one blurt out, if only in one's head, YES!!  To end things, she replays the theme with such delicacy and tenderness, particularly in the melody, that one sits transfixed, almost ready to spring to one's feet and offer a standing ovation.

The theme and every variation have so much to hear, so many felicitous little touches, that it nearly overwhelms the listener.  What it most certainly does do is act as a stimulant at least equivalent to a couple shots of espresso.  The playing demands the utmost attention.  The mind mustn't wander.  It cannot wander.  It must focus.

Uchida's recording of the Diabelli Variations is, by some distance, her greatest recording, and it stands as one of the greatest recordings of the work.  Of course such a proclamation is heavily influenced by early enthusiasm, so I will revisit this recording in the coming months, and years, to see if it holds up.  I strongly suspect it will.

Were I to pick a nit, and I shall, it has nothing to do with the recording.  The liner note photo of her smiling doesn't work.  There, there's my gripe. 

Perfect sound.

Perfect recording.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on June 07, 2022, 04:58:49 AM



Mitsuko Uchida's pianism has never really worked for me.  There is absolutely no questioning her pianistic ability.  She belongs to the elite of the elite in terms of pretty much every aspect of playing.  On record she delivers what she wants to deliver, or at least that has been the case in what I have heard.  It's just that what she delivers doesn't click.  Which seems strange.  I generally prefer strongly individual pianists, ones who highlight specific aspects of well-known scores and who inject personal touches aplenty.  Uchida does that.  But for me, she often just sounds fussy.  Even that is not a problem, really.  András Schiff's earlier recordings often sound fussy, but I adore his fussiness.  All that's OK.  I don't have to like everything.  To be sure, her late Beethoven sonatas are pretty good, and her concerto cycle with Simon Rattle surprised me a bit with its overall musical quality.  But nothing prepared me for this

One hears what's special about this recording in the opening bars of the theme.  Uchida's control of dynamics approaches Volodosian quality, and it remains throughout the work.  Her ability to perfectly move from piano to forte in a smooth, perfectly controlled fashion, almost as though a perfect volume control is being used, amazes.  And it ain't no studio trick.  She does it all the time throughout the recording.  That's just one trick.  Another is her perfect delivery of sforzandi.  She'll cruise along playing in lovely, rounded fashion, then blam!, her playing hits the listener right between the eyes.  Each time, every time, start to finish in the work.  Damn, damn, damn. 

Uchida's super-fine tempo control and rhythmic delivery may be better yet.  She delicately front-loads or back-loads phrases to perfection, applying the minutest accelerations or decelerations to giddiness inducing effect.  An early culmination of this is the sixth variation, which undulates in a way such that one starts to bob one's head to the left hand playing only to be pleasantly interrupted by the right hand playing.  In the ninth variation, as she reaches the first climax and then abruptly and flawless backs off, one can't help but silently (or not) say "woo".  Uchida follows that up with a most playful yet serious tenth variation, perfectly measured, not sounding spontaneous, but not sounding not spontaneous. 

Then things get even better as her fussiness manifests itself in a gloriously micromanaged eleventh variation, where each individual note sounds absolutely flawless.  Lucky number thirteen, with its ridiculous pauses and thundering notes alternating with gentle playing, sounds informed by Opp 106 and 126.  I mean, yeah.  The refined to the Nth degree rough playing of the sixteenth and seventeenth variations charms in a faux gruff manner, and the latter presents a dilemma to the listener – follow the left hand or the right hand more closely?  The obvious answer is to listen again. 

The twentieth variation, in its serenity and depth, reminds the listener that this is late Beethoven, and the Notte e giorno faticar variation sounds so exaggerated yet so controlled that one can't help but be amused at its humor or notice its spiritual connection to the second movement of 31/1.  The late LvB soundworld reappears in force in the twenty-fourth variation, which reminds the listener of the Bachian/Handelian passage in the slow movement of Op 126.  And that left hand playing in the twenty-sixth variation!  The great, slow Largo (number thirty-six) stands as the apotheosis of late-LvB soundworld music in this recording, approaching Op 110 levels of rarefication.  The final variation almost seems to be Beethoven reminding everyone that he was at the time the master of the art of fugue.  The way Uchida rumbles out the lower register playing makes one blurt out, if only in one's head, YES!!  To end things, she replays the theme with such delicacy and tenderness, particularly in the melody, that one sits transfixed, almost ready to spring to one's feet and offer a standing ovation.

The theme and every variation have so much to hear, so many felicitous little touches, that it nearly overwhelms the listener.  What it most certainly does do is act as a stimulant at least equivalent to a couple shots of espresso.  The playing demands the utmost attention.  The mind mustn't wander.  It cannot wander.  It must focus.

Uchida's recording of the Diabelli Variations is, by some distance, her greatest recording, and it stands as one of the greatest recordings of the work.  Of course such a proclamation is heavily influenced by early enthusiasm, so I will revisit this recording in the coming months, and years, to see if it holds up.  I strongly suspect it will.

Were I to pick a nit, and I shall, it has nothing to do with the recording.  The liner note photo of her smiling doesn't work.  There, there's my gripe. 

Perfect sound.

Perfect recording.

This must be the most enthusiastic review you ever wrote, Todd. Made me click the Buy button the very moment I finished reading it.  ;)

However, "playful yet serious " strikes me as maybe the oxymoron of the week.  ;D

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Jo498

The glass bead game (nobody named this in the other thread, too pretentious?) is both playful and serious, I guess.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

She is so nuanced, and so reflective.

What I've noticed when I've talked to people about it is that some people who like Beethoven think that this amount of subtlety and refinement is somehow inappropriate. They want fire! They want stormy exuberance.

If I had one criticism of it it would be this: that to me, it sounded like a sequence of etudes. There wasn't a sense of élan running from Var 1 to the end. But I'm not sure whether this is just a reflection of me rather than something more intrinsic to her conception, her realisation.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Todd

Quote from: Mandryka on June 07, 2022, 10:29:50 AMWhat I've noticed when I've talked to people about it is that some people who like Beethoven think that this amount of subtlety and refinement is somehow inappropriate. They want fire! They want stormy exuberance.

Stormy exuberance is a legitimate way to play the piece, but so is something more refined.  I began looking at the piece a different way after hearing Anton Kuerti play it in person, after giving what amounts to a twenty-minute master class, where he explained several variations in painstaking detail, and then played examples on the spot.  There can be no one right way with this or any non-player piano piece.


Quote from: Mandryka on June 07, 2022, 10:29:50 AMIf I had one criticism of it it would be this: that to me, it sounded like a sequence of etudes. There wasn't a sense of élan running from Var 1 to the end. But I'm not sure whether this is just a reflection of me rather than something more intrinsic to her conception, her realisation.

Uchida's approach is so detail-oriented that the listener is drawn to those above all.  I should probably listen through eardbuds while walking to see if deprioritizing focus yields a different listening experience.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Holden

#132
Quote from: Todd on June 07, 2022, 10:48:05 AM
Stormy exuberance is a legitimate way to play the piece, but so is something more refined.  I began looking at the piece a different way after hearing Anton Kuerti play it in person, after giving what amounts to a twenty-minute master class, where he explained several variations in painstaking detail, and then played examples on the spot.  There can be no one right way with this or any non-player piano piece.


Uchida's approach is so detail-oriented that the listener is drawn to those above all.  I should probably listen through eardbuds while walking to see if deprioritizing focus yields a different listening experience.

Yes, I totally agree. For a long time Schnabel and Kovacevich were my benchmarks then I heard Arrau and realised that there was different way to approach this monumental work. Uchida takes us into another realm again.

The one thing I've harped on about is how the theme is played defines what happens in subsequent variations. For example, dynamic shadings should be the same and adding to the range of the dynamics is just part of that. If it was played softly in the theme then it should be at least p or pp in the variations. If the left hand was emphasised (and Uchida has a magnificent left hand) then that should happen in the same part of the variations. Uchida does this superbly and you can see that she sees the longer view as opposed to producing 33 little vignettes.

Todd mentions her fussiness and I didn't like how she used this in her Mozart PS cycle. But, as part of that cycle the Fantasia in D minor was included and you suddenly realised that she had the ability to really bring slow movements to life - just not in the Mozart PS. You can hear this in those slow variations before the final fugue variation.
Cheers

Holden

André

Quote from: Jo498 on June 07, 2022, 08:33:07 AM
The glass bead game (nobody named this in the other thread, too pretentious?) is both playful and serious, I guess.

Referring to the Literary Works thread ?

Jo498

Quote from: André on June 08, 2022, 04:10:17 AM
Referring to the Literary Works thread ?
Yes, people named some Hesse novels but one of the few I never read (Narziss und Goldmund), not the Glass bead game or Steppenwolf.

As for the Diabelli variations I think they are actually quite humorous.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

Actually I don't think I was being completely fair to Uchida. I just put in the hifi and it came on playing here Var 16, it must have been where I stopped last night. Well, there's fire aplenty! Refined fire, but fire nevertheless.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

amw

I listened to the Fugue and Menuetto. The former was fine, the latter struck me as heavily mannered, although the pianism is impressive. Her raw control of touch has improved since the recordings of the last five sonatas, but I'm not sure I like what she does with it. I was reminded to some extent of Zhu Xiao-Mei's Bach recordings for Accentus in that respect.

I'll have more thoughts once I listen to the whole thing but I'm doubtful this will end up a top recording for me. The Menuetto should be understated, charming and transcendent at the same time. To my ears it didn't achieve the first two, and aimed for the latter unsuccessfully. I can't blame an artist for not achieving transcendence—that's a difficult feat for anyone, especially in this piece—but lack of "grazioso e dolce" and a failure to follow "ma non tirarsi dietro" (Beethoven's two directions here) isn't promising.

At the same time I can't think of an ideal recording of the Menuetto, one that achieves the sense of all the harmonies of the world subsumed within the everyday, the sense of life returning to normal after a catastrophic disruption but in which normality itself is transfigured to "feel" far more eternal and heavenly than any of the moments of sublime awe and majesty in Beethoven's other work. Perhaps there isn't one.

Spotted Horses

I have several recordings of the Diabelli Variations and they all have one thing in common. I have not managed to listen through any of them. My general impression of Uchida from other recordings I have listened to is that she has impressive technique, but tends to give me the impression of being too mannered. Maybe I should listen to Pollini.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

amw

#138
I have 17 recordings of the Diabelli Variations. I've never had an issue with listening all the way through. Traditionally, my reference was Serkin père but I guess I should do an actual comparison at some point. (On listening to all 17 versions of the Menuetto, the one on this occasion I most wanted to hear the other 32 variations of was András Schiff's Brodmann fortepiano recording, which seemed to best exemplify the qualities I mentioned above.)

Mandryka

Quote from: amw on June 09, 2022, 01:48:52 PM


At the same time I can't think of an ideal recording of the Menuetto, one that achieves the sense of all the harmonies of the world subsumed within the everyday, the sense of life returning to normal after a catastrophic disruption but in which normality itself is transfigured to "feel" far more eternal and heavenly than any of the moments of sublime awe and majesty in Beethoven's other work. Perhaps there isn't one.

See what you think of Dino Ciani.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen