Author Topic: Diabelli Variations  (Read 35719 times)

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Offline FideLeo

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2008, 08:28:49 AM »
I never discuss religion, politics or HIP. ;)

I discuss HIP with rational people.  ;D

(Ditto religion and politics.)
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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2008, 08:30:02 AM »
Well the instrument does count for me -- and I imagine for someone like Malcolm Bilson and Robert Levin as well, who wrote extensively about the benefits of using fortepianos.

You're no Bilson or Levin.  I'm very confident they greatly enjoy exceptional performances on the modern piano.  You likely will also as your musical insight deepens over the years.  In the meantime, try to keep an open mind on the subject.

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2008, 08:31:51 AM »
You're no Bilson or Levin.  I'm very confident they greatly enjoy exceptional performances on the modern piano.  You likely will also as your musical insight deepens over the years.  In the meantime, try to keep an open mind on the subject.

I am not Bilson or Levin and so instrument shouldn't matter to me?  I am not sure who needs to keep an open mind here.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Don

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2008, 08:37:28 AM »
I am not Bilson or Levin and so instrument shouldn't matter to me?  I am not sure who needs to keep an open mind here.

Could be that you're not one of the brighter bulbs on the block, but I'd wager that your problem is just lack of maturity.

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2008, 08:39:05 AM »
Could be that you're not one of the brighter bulbs on the block, but I'd wager that your problem is just lack of maturity.

Don't wager anything, I am not interested in your bets.  :D
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Don

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2008, 08:58:28 AM »
Don't wager anything, I am not interested in your bets.  :D

Don't you want to help me improve my financial situation?  After all, you did refer to me as your friend.

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2008, 08:59:40 AM »
But what is musically important (or dramatically important, as in the case of Shakespeare) may be subject to interpretation. Let's say for argument's sake, that the voice is an instrument. Would, for example, the use of boys in soprano/alto roles in Bach, as well as boys for female roles in Shakespeare, be obligatory in your view?

In priciple: Yes.

In practice: Not so sure.

Would you reject an inspired reading of Lady Macbeth by a great actress, or an inspired reading of the Diabellis by a modern pianist, on the grounds that the "choice of instrument" is a musically important factor?

I am not a HIP fanatic. Opposed to many modern-instrument fanatics, who completely reject period practice (have a look at the other forum) , I do not reject modern instrument practice, - as Don writes above: It is the performance that counts. So if I want to hear Backhaus play Beethoven, I have to accept the instrument he is using. But generally I find, - if we forget about the performer for a short moment, that peroiod instruments suit the music better than modern instruments. Not surprising since the music was written with period instruments in mind.
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Don

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2008, 09:23:10 AM »
But generally I find, - if we forget about the performer for a short moment, that peroiod instruments suit the music better than modern instruments. Not surprising since the music was written with period instruments in mind.


And that's a perfectly reasonable attitude.  I prefer Bach on harpsichord, but that doesn't exclude my loving the performances of Gould, Gulda, Tureck, etc.

The Batterby Diabelli disc is a good example.  He delivers a generic performance on the modern piano - ditto when he plays the work on the fortepiano.  Batterby is Batterby no matter what type of instrument he employs.

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2008, 09:54:48 AM »
And that's a perfectly reasonable attitude.  I prefer Bach on harpsichord, but that doesn't exclude my loving the performances of Gould, Gulda, Tureck, etc.

I would agree.

The Batterby Diabelli disc is a good example.  He delivers a generic performance on the modern piano - ditto when he plays the work on the fortepiano.  Batterby is Batterby no matter what type of instrument he employs.

Then, to make a Melvillean pun, I would prefer not to listen to Batterby.

Premont says:
Quote
But generally I find, - if we forget about the performer for a short moment, that peroiod instruments suit the music better than modern instruments. Not surprising since the music was written with period instruments in mind.

The range of the fortepiano was expanded during the last years of Beethoven's life, allowing for the extremes we see in a sonata like op. 111. In earlier works (e.g. the op. 10/3 sonata, the first concerto), Beethoven writes melodic lines that plainly demand the F# a semitone above the top note of his piano at the time. If a fortepiano is being used with the expanded range needed for 111, should we or should we not substitute the F# in the earlier cases?
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BorisG

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2008, 09:59:14 AM »
I dislike the work, so I have an easy decision. ;)

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2008, 10:00:12 AM »


Then, to make a Melvillean pun, I would prefer not to listen to Batterby.



I prefer to listen to Paul Komen than to Battersby, both on a Graf fortepiano.  ;D

(OK, Komen uses LvB's own instrument, while Battersby uses only a good copy.)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 10:03:46 AM by fl.traverso »
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Don

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2008, 10:04:09 AM »
I prefer to listen to Paul Komen than to Battersby, both on a Graf fortepiano.  ;D

This is something we agree on.

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2008, 10:04:44 AM »
I dislike the work, so I have an easy decision. ;)

Will Uri Caine (also using a Graf fortepiano) change your mind?  ;D
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2008, 10:05:17 AM »
The range of the fortepiano was expanded during the last years of Beethoven's life, allowing for the extremes we see in a sonata like op. 111. In earlier works (e.g. the op. 10/3 sonata, the first concerto), Beethoven writes melodic lines that plainly demand the F# a semitone above the top note of his piano at the time. If a fortepiano is being used with the expanded range needed for 111, should we or should we not substitute the F# in the earlier cases?
Don't quite a number of performers substitute the F# or in some cases the low E which is also not available in some of the earlier pianos ?

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2008, 10:06:46 AM »
This is something we agree on.

Is this due to your maturity or my maturity?   ;)
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2008, 10:09:01 AM »
Don't quite a number of performers substitute the F# or in some cases the low E which is also not available in some of the earlier pianos ?

This was a historically authentic performance practice but not part of HIP!  (Not sure the distinction is understood by all.)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 10:11:47 AM by fl.traverso »
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Don

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2008, 10:09:32 AM »
Is this due to your maturity or my maturity?   ;)

Likely just coincidence.

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2008, 10:10:34 AM »
Likely just coincidence.

I don't want to wager anything, so no comment  :D
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2008, 10:29:25 AM »
This was a historically authentic performance practice but not part of HIP!  (Not sure the distinction is understood by all.)

As what you are saying sounds like, "A is the initial letter of the alphabet but not the first letter," please expound.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Diabelli Variations
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2008, 10:32:03 AM »
Don't quite a number of performers substitute the F# or in some cases the low E which is also not available in some of the earlier pianos ?

I would think anyone would who has a grain of common sense.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."