Mozart's genius is best defined by his....?

[BachQ]

Apart from opera:  PC's and symphonies ........

[lukeottevanger]

Aside from his formal innnovation, the nuts & bolts & essence of it is a simplification and not that interesting for my tastes. His music is mostly rather light, and requires little 'active' involvement to obtain enough effective content. It's textures & verticals are salon polite and tend not to intrude into the foreground of consciousness, where they may detract from the sale/corporate message for which they are so often being put to use. They might almost have been designed with such utility in mind. In fact much of his music is advertising something in itself : it has the feel of music that is looking at itself in the mirror ... admiring it's costume & finery. I find it repetitive & a bit puffed up. 

Yeah, I used to feel that way when I was young. I was quite belligerent about it. Then as I matured I realised that those polite surfaces of Mozart are only that - there is a whole ultra-subtle and profound play of proportion and motive going on which requires those surfaces in order to function. The much maligned 'cliche-ed' aspects of Mozart (and Beethoven), especially their cadential passages, are absolutely necessary to create formal balance; what is more, once this is appreciated, they become as beautifully cathartic as the more obviously melting moments in the music. That's why such a simple thing as a subdominant inflection - which is a point of harmonic balance in Bach but not often more than that - can become so much more in Mozart. Form, harmony and motive become linked in the most sophisitcated ways. Bach and Mozart - two different styles, two entirely different ways of writing, two 'realisations' of Music from first principles - and neither of these ways better than the other.

I'm not pretending that Mozart's wide popularity is based on an appreciation of these subtleties - I'm sure that, as you suggest, that popularity is due much more to his pretty, polite surfaces. But that's by the by - it is in these miraculously balanced structures that Mozart's genius lies.

In short, I'm still trying to live down my youthful dismissal of Mozart in my family - ironically enough, I'm fairly sure most of them loved Mozart for those surfaces, and not for the subtleties. 

[karlhenning]

I'm not pretending that Mozart's wide popularity is based on an appreciation of these subtleties - I'm sure that, as you suggest, that popularity is due much more to his pretty, polite surfaces. But that's by the by - it is in these miraculously balanced structures that Mozart's genius lies.

Apparently artless ease on the surface; chewy caramel centres.  Mozart the Polyvalent.

[(poco) Sforzando]

It's textures & verticals are salon polite and tend not to intrude into the foreground of consciousness, where they may detract from the sale/corporate message for which they are so often being put to use. They might almost have been designed with such utility in mind. . . .Mozart has sold a shit-load more Mercedes & Audi's than Bach could ever dream of.

Then surely to have had the prescience in the 1780s to sell "a shit-load of Mercedes & Audi's" is in itself a sign of only the greatest genius.

[karlhenning]

Bach can still salvage the situation. Maybe the St Matthew Passion can peddle the Honda Element.

[ChamberNut]

In a generalised description I think Mozart's music was far more surface orientated ... in harmonic terms it was conceived in the vertical ... to be experienced vertically, but with a strong emphasis on top line melody to replace interest potentially lost through it's much simplified horizontal aspects. It aspired to a lighter and more vivacious effect than Bach's - at which of course it succeeds ... and it is much enjoyed by people who like that sort of thing. Mozart was in awe of Bach, and loved some of what he heard - his quotes about Bach indicate this. However, Bach would probably have disliked Mozart's music ... because despite it's evident melodious euphony, he may well have found it repetitive and a bit puffed up.

Surface beauty & glitter & charm were his aspiration. It is not surprising it is easily adapted to corporate use, in adverts etc used to suggest to the suggestible / social climber / business person a perception or veneer of what they should think is civilised, rarified, up-market ... in order to sell products. It might be indirect PR, but that is PR for a dead (overrated) composer ... in a very real and all too effective way I'm afraid.

Conclusion - Bach was vertically challenged.

[lukeottevanger]

However, Bach would probably have disliked Mozart's music ... because despite it's evident melodious euphony, he may well have found it repetitive and a bit puffed up.

Wow - word for word the same as you describe your reaction, in fact. What a coincidence! A case of ascribing your own tastes to those of your favourites, I suspect.

As I said - Bach and Mozart, the Baroque aesthetic and the Classical, are two entirely different things and one must be careful about describing one from the POV of the other. Where to one person Mozart seems repetitive, to another Bach seems samey, lacking in contrast. But Classical form is built on the idea of repetition and balance; and Baroque style on through-composed melody, unified texture, undramatised form. Both approaches produce wondrous music, but procede from differing points.

[BachQ]

After Bach & the Baroque era, things went downhill for quite awhile IMO...

Yeah, things went downhill up until Elgar came along .......

[(poco) Sforzando]

After Bach & the Baroque era, things went downhill for quite awhile IMO...

Good thing for music that so few share your opinion...

[Don]

However, Bach would probably have disliked Mozart's music ... because despite it's evident melodious euphony, he may well have found it repetitive and a bit puffed up.

I can't imagine Bach not liking Mozart's music, even if he found it lacking in profundity.  Bach knew great music when he heard it.

[MN Dave]

I can't imagine Bach not liking Mozart's music, even if he found it lacking in profundity.  Bach knew great music when he heard it.

"I got yer profundity..." Mozart said to Bach.

[Haffner]

As it pertains to Mozart's creativity, orginality.

Eeeee....that's where it gets tricky.

Originality: I can't really say on that one. I'd assert that Mozart perfected the Concerto, Opera, Symphony, String Quintet, and Sonata forms of his time. However, Haydn's String Quartets and Symphonies (both i]pre[/i]-mortem Mozart) were far more original than probably anything Mozart ever did.

On a creative level, again I'm hard pressed. See above.

On the level of amazing compositional craftmanship, borderline supernaturally-inspired-sounding melodies, and astounding virtuosic musicianship, Mozart is the quintessence.

[Haffner]

"I got yer profundity..." Mozart said to Bach.

The string quartet in G minor.
The G minor Symphony.
"Ach, ich fuhls..."
The Requiem
The whole of Don Giovanni
The Mass in C minor
k466

Anyone care to add?

[Haffner]

Bach would probably have disliked Mozart's music ... because despite it's evident melodious euphony, he may well have found it repetitive and a bit puffed up.

James, Bach repeated himself. Quite a bit in fact.

[Keemun]

I voted "Blech, don't like Mozart".  I don't know why, I just don't.   I find it difficult, often impossible, to listen to a complete performance of one of his works.  Whew, I'm glad I finally got that off my chest! 0:)  I do hope that someday I will appreciate the genius that so many claim he possessed, just as I finally "got" Bruckner. 

[Don]

FWIW, the canine to the left most prefers Mozart's Clarinet Concerto.

[Haffner]

FWIW, the canine to the left most prefers Mozart's Clarinet Concerto.

"Jest a good ole dawwwg..."

[Don]

I voted "Blech, don't like Mozart".  I don't know why, I just don't.   I find it difficult, often impossible, to listen to a complete performance of one of his works. 

Even the Mass in C minor?

[marvinbrown]

  Easy enough the operas and piano concertos of course- those piano concertos are remarkable aren't they!

  marvin

[(poco) Sforzando]

Even the Mass in C minor?

A bit hard to do, as that work was left incomplete.

FWIW, the canine to the left most prefers Mozart's Clarinet Concerto.

My right incisor has a thing for the A minor rondo.