Webern's Vibe

Started by karlhenning, April 02, 2008, 12:44:20 PM

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snyprrr

Quote from: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 08:35:10 AM
Me and singing. It's a blind spot. Or deaf spot.

Let's start a Club!!

It's not your fault, it is the fault of whomever said that Classical Music singers had to all sound like warbling Opera singers, everything deriving from some misbegotten notion of what the human voice is supposed to sound like.

I'm sure you have a favorite "singer",... say, Linda Ronstadt or Peter Gabriel or Frank Sinatra. HAS IT EVER OCCURED to anyone what Classical Music would sound like with "natural" singers?

Jan deGaetani and all those new fangled singers from the 60s, had NO VIBRATO and sang as pure as they were able. I can't think of any singer today emulating their style.

If Christina Aguilera(?) really has such a good voice (or Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey), why do we not ever hear ANY "normal" singer go rouge.

Or even if Diamanda Galas (I just pop a boner writing that, lol!!) would sing Webern as it was meant to be sung...


I dunno, Classical Music singers just seem like a waste to me :( :'( :-[
\


I think I have SOME singing of Classical Music that actually SOUNDS GOOD!!

OH THE DRAMA!!!! :o

nodogen

Quote from: snyprrr on August 28, 2017, 07:52:21 AM
Let's start a Club!!

It's not your fault, it is the fault of whomever said that Classical Music singers had to all sound like warbling Opera singers, everything deriving from some misbegotten notion of what the human voice is supposed to sound like.

I'm sure you have a favorite "singer",... say, Linda Ronstadt or Peter Gabriel or Frank Sinatra. HAS IT EVER OCCURED to anyone what Classical Music would sound like with "natural" singers?

Jan deGaetani and all those new fangled singers from the 60s, had NO VIBRATO and sang as pure as they were able. I can't think of any singer today emulating their style.

If Christina Aguilera(?) really has such a good voice (or Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey), why do we not ever hear ANY "normal" singer go rouge.

Or even if Diamanda Galas (I just pop a boner writing that, lol!!) would sing Webern as it was meant to be sung...


I dunno, Classical Music singers just seem like a waste to me :( :'( :-[
\


I think I have SOME singing of Classical Music that actually SOUNDS GOOD!!

OH THE DRAMA!!!! :o

Crumbs, I understood your post and agree with you. One of us has messed our meds up.

I do indeed hate opera.

Classical singing doesn't have to be....the way it is. Gorecki's Symphony no.3 is completely divine.

(Please don't mention Galas singing Webern to alien. He'd never survive the popping)

nodogen

Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 28, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
Agreed, there are exceptions but I am generally quite indifferent to the standard vocal style in classical music. I don't get why classical tradition thinks that it has to sing like that, it's often to hard to get into as well  >:(

I think the first opera that I actually liked (and indeed fell straight in love with) was Ligeti's Le Grande Macabre which may be semi-ironic considering that it is in part mocking opera (and existentialism conceptually). You already know how much I love Stockhausen's Licht, so I'll keep that one out of this  ;)

There are operatic and vocal pieces I like such as Monteverdi's Orfeo, Mahler's Wunderhorn, Schubert's songs etc but they seem to be strange exceptions. I guess I'm always in a reluctant spot with this stuff  ::)

It seems weird (but not) to point out that Renaissance music means the world to me, considering how much of it is vocal music  :laugh: Though they are often 'vocal ensembles' in a sense, so it's not focused on specific voices; rather a wash of lots of polyphonic voices.


If you ever want me to slit my throat, put on a Mozart or Verdi opera  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  >:D


Galas, like Xenakis' vocal works (Ais, Oresteia etc), is VIOLENT/aggressive/ritualistic and that is what I wish I saw more of in classical music  :'( :'( :'(
The 20th century avant garde has produced the greatest classical vocal works IMO.

;D

Yes I have various vocal stuff, such as Ligeti and Tallis, it's not vocal music in principle I don't enjoy, it's the typical "style." To my ignorant ears it doesn't sound "natural." 😕

nodogen

Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 30, 2017, 11:28:07 PM
Nodogen, have you heard Op 6?


Yep, it's on the Ulster Orchestra / Yuasa CD that I have.

snyprrr

Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 28, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
Agreed, there are exceptions but I am generally quite indifferent to the standard vocal style in classical music. I don't get why classical tradition thinks that it has to sing like that, it's often to hard to get into as well  >:(

I think the first opera that I actually liked (and indeed fell straight in love with) was Ligeti's Le Grande Macabre which may be semi-ironic considering that it is in part mocking opera (and existentialism conceptually). You already know how much I love Stockhausen's Licht, so I'll keep that one out of this  ;)

There are operatic and vocal pieces I like such as Monteverdi's Orfeo, Mahler's Wunderhorn, Schubert's songs etc but they seem to be strange exceptions. I guess I'm always in a reluctant spot with this stuff  ::)

It seems weird (but not) to point out that Renaissance music means the world to me, considering how much of it is vocal music  :laugh: Though they are often 'vocal ensembles' in a sense, so it's not focused on specific voices; rather a wash of lots of polyphonic voices.


If you ever want me to slit my throat, put on a Mozart or Verdi opera  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  >:D


Galas, like Xenakis' vocal works (Ais, Oresteia etc), is VIOLENT/aggressive/ritualistic and that is what I wish I saw more of in classical music  :'( :'( :'(
The 20th century avant garde has produced the greatest classical vocal works IMO.

;D

I think we're all on the same page here. What's funny is, we all agree that ANYTHING BUT, as Nielien said, Mozart or Verdi, is actually GOOD Vocal Music. I love the Gregg Smith Singers, lol, maybe they've sung Mozart!

Elizabeth Soderstrom ::)

I quail at the thought of 2nd Viennese Lieder/Leider (what is it again?), even if Roger Daltry were singing,




wait...what???


btw- it's too hard for me not to take Op.6 for granted. I agree, though, that it is actually quite bizarre, but I do hear the rustic rustling of leaves still just a bit- it is still human- whereas Selsi writes as if FROM the other side of the door Webern was opening. It's still a human experience with Webern- though, the Op.28 I might say is going abstrea

my computer >:D

wtf do I keep accidentally hitting?? >:D >:D >:D


You did it

The day Smalin/Musanim does a video of Webern's Symphony, I will be able to die satisfied  :D

vers la flamme

Hmm, no Webern talk in 2019...

In 2019, Anton Webern became one of my very favorite composers. I have grown to love his music very much. Everything from richly contrapuntal, overripe Romanticism of the Passacaglia and Im Sommerwind, to the deeply expressive primal scream of op.5 and op.6, to the esoteric symbology and bizarre yet always fascinating orchestration of the many Lieder, to the mystery and mysticism of the Symphony, the two Cantatas, and the String Quartet... there is very much to appreciate in his music. It's been a journey, coming to understand and appreciate his music, and I'm still in the early stages.

Apologies in advance for making this personal for a moment, but last week marked 15 years since my mother's death, and I can't believe it, because even after all this time, the loss is still an open wound. Webern's op.6, Six Pieces for Orchestra, is a work that I think captures in sound better than any other music I've heard the shock and aftermath of the death of a loved one. The composer wrote it in response to the death of his own mother and it's obvious to me what he was trying to get across, and it is like something that could have come out of my own head. Listening to it always helps me to process those old feelings that never really went away. I am very grateful to have found this piece of music.

Anyway, I listened to that and a handful of other Webern orchestral works tonight, and I just wanted to recommend this excellent box set to anyone who doesn't have it:



Well then, anyone listening to Webern lately?!

San Antone

Quote from: vers la flamme on December 29, 2019, 04:50:53 PM
Hmm, no Webern talk in 2019...

In 2019, Anton Webern became one of my very favorite composers. I have grown to love his music very much. Everything from richly contrapuntal, overripe Romanticism of the Passacaglia and Im Sommerwind, to the deeply expressive primal scream of op.5 and op.6, to the esoteric symbology and bizarre yet always fascinating orchestration of the many Lieder, to the mystery and mysticism of the Symphony, the two Cantatas, and the String Quartet... there is very much to appreciate in his music. It's been a journey, coming to understand and appreciate his music, and I'm still in the early stages.

Apologies in advance for making this personal for a moment, but last week marked 15 years since my mother's death, and I can't believe it, because even after all this time, the loss is still an open wound. Webern's op.6, Six Pieces for Orchestra, is a work that I think captures in sound better than any other music I've heard the shock and aftermath of the death of a loved one. The composer wrote it in response to the death of his own mother and it's obvious to me what he was trying to get across, and it is like something that could have come out of my own head. Listening to it always helps me to process those old feelings that never really went away. I am very grateful to have found this piece of music.

Anyway, I listened to that and a handful of other Webern orchestral works tonight, and I just wanted to recommend this excellent box set to anyone who doesn't have it:



Well then, anyone listening to Webern lately?!

At various times Webern has been a composer that I've listened to quite a bit, and one I have listed as among my Top Ten Favorite Composers.  He is my favorite of the three in the Second Viennese School. 

I don't have that box, but have the Boulez Complete Music, which contains the recordings I have heard the most.  I am always interested in listening to Webern, and will look for that Sinopoli box, since you are not the first to speak highly of it.  Or I might just look for some of his Webern recordings, individually.

8)

San Antone

Okay, I found that set on Spotify, but with a different cover.



Listening to the Five Orchestral Pieces, op. 10

vers la flamme

^Awesome. I think Sinopoli is at his best with the early and middle works, but really all of his interpretations are worth hearing, if not for his conducting than for the amazing clarity of the Dresden Staatskapelle, one of my favorite orchestras. I've seen a lot of people rip on the artwork for the recent reissue, and I think the Mondriaan-esque fits with the music a little better, but I can't complain as I got the one that I pictured for like $15 and the older issue is going for a lot more than that.

As for Boulez, I have the earlier of his two traversals, on Sony, which is not complete per se, but it does contain all of his works that were assigned an opus number. From what I've heard of the DG box, I tend to like the Sony performances better, but I'll be getting the DG box as soon as I can find an affordable one just to satisfy that completist urge with Webern's music. Doesn't hurt that I'm a huge Boulez fan too, as performer and composer.


San Antone

Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 01:44:27 AM
^Awesome. I think Sinopoli is at his best with the early and middle works, but really all of his interpretations are worth hearing, if not for his conducting than for the amazing clarity of the Dresden Staatskapelle, one of my favorite orchestras. I've seen a lot of people rip on the artwork for the recent reissue, and I think the Mondriaan-esque fits with the music a little better, but I can't complain as I got the one that I pictured for like $15 and the older issue is going for a lot more than that.

As for Boulez, I have the earlier of his two traversals, on Sony, which is not complete per se, but it does contain all of his works that were assigned an opus number. From what I've heard of the DG box, I tend to like the Sony performances better, but I'll be getting the DG box as soon as I can find an affordable one just to satisfy that completist urge with Webern's music. Doesn't hurt that I'm a huge Boulez fan too, as performer and composer.

I have both sets, and actually prefer the 1-31 opp. set because it leaves out the works without opus numbers.  But, as far which performances I prefer?  I can't answer that since I don't listen that way and don't try to make comparisons.  Each box has its strengths and for a Webern fan, I'd say having both would not be a tragedy.

Mirror Image

Quote from: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 03:37:57 AM
I have both sets, and actually prefer the 1-31 opp. set because it leaves out the works without opus numbers.  But, as far which performances I prefer?  I can't answer that since I don't listen that way and don't try to make comparisons.  Each box has its strengths and for a Webern fan, I'd say having both would not be a tragedy.

To the bolded text, what a strange comment to make. There are many fine works in Webern's oeuvre that don't have opus numbers.
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

My "Top 5" Favorite Composers: Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Sibelius and Bartók


San Antone

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 06:16:27 AM
To the bolded text, what a strange comment to make. There are many fine works in Webern's oeuvre that don't have opus numbers.

What can I say?  Strange as it may seem to you, I don't share your appreciation for those works.

8)

Mirror Image

Quote from: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 06:33:37 AM
What can I say?  Strange as it may seem to you, I don't share your appreciation for those works.

8)

There's not one work amongst the works with opus numbers that you even like? Well, to be fair, I'm not a big Webern fan, so I don't really appreciate him like I do Schoenberg for example.
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

My "Top 5" Favorite Composers: Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Sibelius and Bartók


San Antone

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 06:42:38 AM
There's not one work amongst the works with opus numbers that you even like? Well, to be fair, I'm not a big Webern fan, so I don't really appreciate him like I do Schoenberg for example.

I am not interested in Webern's music prior to his mature style, i.e. the spare, pointillistic, serial music.  Contrary to you, I prefer Webern's work, especially the mid- to late works, to anything Schoenberg or Berg composed.  But of those two, I will probably make more of an effort to listen to Berg's operas.

Jo498

I think that stuff like "Im Sommerwind" or that early slow movement for string quartet show, like Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht etc., that Webern could have become a composer fully immersed in late/impressionist romanticism instead of moving into a more austere direction. There are very few people around nowadays who seriously claim that Schoenberg and his pupils composed "ugly modern" music because they were unable to do "better" but these early works very clearly disprove such nonsense.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

vers la flamme

Quote from: Jo498 on December 30, 2019, 08:27:11 AM
I think that stuff like "Im Sommerwind" or that early slow movement for string quartet show, like Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht etc., that Webern could have become a composer fully immersed in late/impressionist romanticism instead of moving into a more austere direction. There are very few people around nowadays who seriously claim that Schoenberg and his pupils composed "ugly modern" music because they were unable to do "better" but these early works very clearly disprove such nonsense.

Yes, hearing Webern's Passacaglia and Sommerwind, Berg's great piano sonata, and most of all Schoenberg's Gurrelieder was big for me in understanding these composers. These early, late-Romantic works really illuminated the way into the rest of the music for me. I want to echo Mirror Image that there are many great Webern works sans opus, and I want to echo San Antone that I much prefer Webern to Berg or Schoenberg, both of whom I also love. Well, it's not fair to say that, it's just that Webern's music speaks to me on a much more direct, personal level than does the music of the other two Viennese. I'm a devoted student of the whole trio, though, and my musical listening life has become very enhanced through the discovery of this fascinating music over the past year or so.

Mirror Image

Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 02:57:59 PM
Yes, hearing Webern's Passacaglia and Sommerwind, Berg's great piano sonata, and most of all Schoenberg's Gurrelieder was big for me in understanding these composers. These early, late-Romantic works really illuminated the way into the rest of the music for me. I want to echo Mirror Image that there are many great Webern works sans opus, and I want to echo San Antone that I much prefer Webern to Berg or Schoenberg, both of whom I also love. Well, it's not fair to say that, it's just that Webern's music speaks to me on a much more direct, personal level than does the music of the other two Viennese. I'm a devoted student of the whole trio, though, and my musical listening life has become very enhanced through the discovery of this fascinating music over the past year or so.

I suppose one reason for my allegiance to Schoenberg stems from the fact that he was the first composer of the Second Viennese School that really opened my ears. When I first heard Verklärte Nacht and read the criticism that it was "as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet," I became rather intrigued by his music. I didn't start appreciating 12-tone Schoenberg until much later, but it was these early works, especially from Schoenberg and Berg that have stayed with me. Webern was always more elusive to me even though I certainly have a better understanding of his music now, but this is only because I've spent more time trying to get inside of his music. After all of these years, I'm still in awe of what these three composers achieved. I even have a t-shirt with Arnie on it. 8)
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

My "Top 5" Favorite Composers: Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Sibelius and Bartók


vers la flamme

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 04:21:23 PM
I suppose one reason for my allegiance to Schoenberg stems from the fact that he was the first composer of the Second Viennese School that really opened my ears. When I first heard Verklärte Nacht and read the criticism that it was "as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet," I became rather intrigued by his music. I didn't start appreciating 12-tone Schoenberg until much later, but it was these early works, especially from Schoenberg and Berg that have stayed with me. Webern was always more elusive to me even though I certainly have a better understanding of his music now, but this is only because I've spent more time trying to get inside of his music. After all of these years, I'm still in awe of what these three composers achieved. I even have a t-shirt with Arnie on it. 8)

That's a badass T-shirt ;D Of the three, Schoenberg was and still is the toughest nut to crack – even the early works! Pierre Boulez once criticized Webern's music for being "too simple", and while he was definitely wrong, or being insincere, there is something to that. I think his music is by far the most straightforward of the three, or at least he is the only one of them whose music clicked with me from the first listen. However, if I had first heard one of the 12-tone Webern works as an introduction to his music rather than the Passacaglia and the 5 Pieces op.5 and 6 Pieces op.6, I think my opinion of him may have been different. By listening from the beginning in chronological order, in light of the very personal response I had to his early works that I described in an earlier post, I was "inside" right from the beginning, and it was only natural working through the remainder of the works.

Anyway, enough about me; everyone hears his music differently! You wouldn't be wrong if you were to describe Schoenberg as the more accomplished composer, or the composer of more advanced music. I love Schoenberg, but I wonder if his music will ever cease to challenge me. I hope it doesn't!

I always thought that description of Verklärte Nacht was apt. It's like Wagner meets Brahms meets Strauss – the birth of expressionism. Did you first hear the sextet or the string orchestra version? I prefer the sextet personally.

Mirror Image

Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 04:37:02 PM
That's a badass T-shirt ;D Of the three, Schoenberg was and still is the toughest nut to crack – even the early works! Pierre Boulez once criticized Webern's music for being "too simple", and while he was definitely wrong, or being insincere, there is something to that. I think his music is by far the most straightforward of the three, or at least he is the only one of them whose music clicked with me from the first listen. However, if I had first heard one of the 12-tone Webern works as an introduction to his music rather than the Passacaglia and the 5 Pieces op.5 and 6 Pieces op.6, I think my opinion of him may have been different. By listening from the beginning in chronological order, in light of the very personal response I had to his early works that I described in an earlier post, I was "inside" right from the beginning, and it was only natural working through the remainder of the works.

Anyway, enough about me; everyone hears his music differently! You wouldn't be wrong if you were to describe Schoenberg as the more accomplished composer, or the composer of more advanced music. I love Schoenberg, but I wonder if his music will ever cease to challenge me. I hope it doesn't!

I always thought that description of Verklärte Nacht was apt. It's like Wagner meets Brahms meets Strauss – the birth of expressionism. Did you first hear the sextet or the string orchestra version? I prefer the sextet personally.

One of my all-time favorite works is Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra. For me, it is better than anything that has come before and after in his oeuvre. I'm a huge fan of this middle period or as it's been called 'free atonal period' where there's no rules and is completely up in the air as far as where the music goes. Five Pieces for Orchestra resonates deeply for me because you can hear a composer that knows he can no longer accept the German/Austrian tradition (even though he never truly abandoned it and, ironically, felt he was a part of the same lineage as Schubert, Brahms, Wagner, etc.). Schoenberg, of course, never fully turned his back on tonality and many of his works embraced it. He's actually not difficult to crack at all, but he does require much listening in order to fully assimilate everything that is happening in his music. I, too, prefer the string sextet arrangement of Verklärte Nacht, but I like the string orchestra arrangement as well.
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

My "Top 5" Favorite Composers: Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Sibelius and Bartók