Started by karlhenning, April 02, 2008, 12:44:20 PM
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Quote from: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 08:35:10 AMMe and singing. It's a blind spot. Or deaf spot.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 28, 2017, 07:52:21 AMLet's start a Club!!It's not your fault, it is the fault of whomever said that Classical Music singers had to all sound like warbling Opera singers, everything deriving from some misbegotten notion of what the human voice is supposed to sound like.I'm sure you have a favorite "singer",... say, Linda Ronstadt or Peter Gabriel or Frank Sinatra. HAS IT EVER OCCURED to anyone what Classical Music would sound like with "natural" singers?Jan deGaetani and all those new fangled singers from the 60s, had NO VIBRATO and sang as pure as they were able. I can't think of any singer today emulating their style.If Christina Aguilera(?) really has such a good voice (or Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey), why do we not ever hear ANY "normal" singer go rouge.Or even if Diamanda Galas (I just pop a boner writing that, lol!!) would sing Webern as it was meant to be sung...I dunno, Classical Music singers just seem like a waste to me \I think I have SOME singing of Classical Music that actually SOUNDS GOOD!!OH THE DRAMA!!!!
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 28, 2017, 06:26:30 PMAgreed, there are exceptions but I am generally quite indifferent to the standard vocal style in classical music. I don't get why classical tradition thinks that it has to sing like that, it's often to hard to get into as well I think the first opera that I actually liked (and indeed fell straight in love with) was Ligeti's Le Grande Macabre which may be semi-ironic considering that it is in part mocking opera (and existentialism conceptually). You already know how much I love Stockhausen's Licht, so I'll keep that one out of this There are operatic and vocal pieces I like such as Monteverdi's Orfeo, Mahler's Wunderhorn, Schubert's songs etc but they seem to be strange exceptions. I guess I'm always in a reluctant spot with this stuff It seems weird (but not) to point out that Renaissance music means the world to me, considering how much of it is vocal music Though they are often 'vocal ensembles' in a sense, so it's not focused on specific voices; rather a wash of lots of polyphonic voices. If you ever want me to slit my throat, put on a Mozart or Verdi opera Galas, like Xenakis' vocal works (Ais, Oresteia etc), is VIOLENT/aggressive/ritualistic and that is what I wish I saw more of in classical music The 20th century avant garde has produced the greatest classical vocal works IMO.
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 30, 2017, 11:28:07 PMNodogen, have you heard Op 6?
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 29, 2019, 04:50:53 PMHmm, no Webern talk in 2019... In 2019, Anton Webern became one of my very favorite composers. I have grown to love his music very much. Everything from richly contrapuntal, overripe Romanticism of the Passacaglia and Im Sommerwind, to the deeply expressive primal scream of op.5 and op.6, to the esoteric symbology and bizarre yet always fascinating orchestration of the many Lieder, to the mystery and mysticism of the Symphony, the two Cantatas, and the String Quartet... there is very much to appreciate in his music. It's been a journey, coming to understand and appreciate his music, and I'm still in the early stages. Apologies in advance for making this personal for a moment, but last week marked 15 years since my mother's death, and I can't believe it, because even after all this time, the loss is still an open wound. Webern's op.6, Six Pieces for Orchestra, is a work that I think captures in sound better than any other music I've heard the shock and aftermath of the death of a loved one. The composer wrote it in response to the death of his own mother and it's obvious to me what he was trying to get across, and it is like something that could have come out of my own head. Listening to it always helps me to process those old feelings that never really went away. I am very grateful to have found this piece of music. Anyway, I listened to that and a handful of other Webern orchestral works tonight, and I just wanted to recommend this excellent box set to anyone who doesn't have it:Well then, anyone listening to Webern lately?!
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 01:44:27 AM^Awesome. I think Sinopoli is at his best with the early and middle works, but really all of his interpretations are worth hearing, if not for his conducting than for the amazing clarity of the Dresden Staatskapelle, one of my favorite orchestras. I've seen a lot of people rip on the artwork for the recent reissue, and I think the Mondriaan-esque fits with the music a little better, but I can't complain as I got the one that I pictured for like $15 and the older issue is going for a lot more than that.As for Boulez, I have the earlier of his two traversals, on Sony, which is not complete per se, but it does contain all of his works that were assigned an opus number. From what I've heard of the DG box, I tend to like the Sony performances better, but I'll be getting the DG box as soon as I can find an affordable one just to satisfy that completist urge with Webern's music. Doesn't hurt that I'm a huge Boulez fan too, as performer and composer.
Quote from: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 03:37:57 AMI have both sets, and actually prefer the 1-31 opp. set because it leaves out the works without opus numbers. But, as far which performances I prefer? I can't answer that since I don't listen that way and don't try to make comparisons. Each box has its strengths and for a Webern fan, I'd say having both would not be a tragedy.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 06:16:27 AMTo the bolded text, what a strange comment to make. There are many fine works in Webern's oeuvre that don't have opus numbers.
Quote from: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 06:33:37 AMWhat can I say? Strange as it may seem to you, I don't share your appreciation for those works.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 06:42:38 AMThere's not one work amongst the works with opus numbers that you even like? Well, to be fair, I'm not a big Webern fan, so I don't really appreciate him like I do Schoenberg for example.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 30, 2019, 08:27:11 AMI think that stuff like "Im Sommerwind" or that early slow movement for string quartet show, like Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht etc., that Webern could have become a composer fully immersed in late/impressionist romanticism instead of moving into a more austere direction. There are very few people around nowadays who seriously claim that Schoenberg and his pupils composed "ugly modern" music because they were unable to do "better" but these early works very clearly disprove such nonsense.
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 02:57:59 PMYes, hearing Webern's Passacaglia and Sommerwind, Berg's great piano sonata, and most of all Schoenberg's Gurrelieder was big for me in understanding these composers. These early, late-Romantic works really illuminated the way into the rest of the music for me. I want to echo Mirror Image that there are many great Webern works sans opus, and I want to echo San Antone that I much prefer Webern to Berg or Schoenberg, both of whom I also love. Well, it's not fair to say that, it's just that Webern's music speaks to me on a much more direct, personal level than does the music of the other two Viennese. I'm a devoted student of the whole trio, though, and my musical listening life has become very enhanced through the discovery of this fascinating music over the past year or so.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 04:21:23 PMI suppose one reason for my allegiance to Schoenberg stems from the fact that he was the first composer of the Second Viennese School that really opened my ears. When I first heard Verklärte Nacht and read the criticism that it was "as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet," I became rather intrigued by his music. I didn't start appreciating 12-tone Schoenberg until much later, but it was these early works, especially from Schoenberg and Berg that have stayed with me. Webern was always more elusive to me even though I certainly have a better understanding of his music now, but this is only because I've spent more time trying to get inside of his music. After all of these years, I'm still in awe of what these three composers achieved. I even have a t-shirt with Arnie on it.
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 04:37:02 PMThat's a badass T-shirt Of the three, Schoenberg was and still is the toughest nut to crack – even the early works! Pierre Boulez once criticized Webern's music for being "too simple", and while he was definitely wrong, or being insincere, there is something to that. I think his music is by far the most straightforward of the three, or at least he is the only one of them whose music clicked with me from the first listen. However, if I had first heard one of the 12-tone Webern works as an introduction to his music rather than the Passacaglia and the 5 Pieces op.5 and 6 Pieces op.6, I think my opinion of him may have been different. By listening from the beginning in chronological order, in light of the very personal response I had to his early works that I described in an earlier post, I was "inside" right from the beginning, and it was only natural working through the remainder of the works. Anyway, enough about me; everyone hears his music differently! You wouldn't be wrong if you were to describe Schoenberg as the more accomplished composer, or the composer of more advanced music. I love Schoenberg, but I wonder if his music will ever cease to challenge me. I hope it doesn't!I always thought that description of Verklärte Nacht was apt. It's like Wagner meets Brahms meets Strauss – the birth of expressionism. Did you first hear the sextet or the string orchestra version? I prefer the sextet personally.
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