The Only Wagneresque Opera

[Operahaven]

Earlier this week veteran classical music critic for The New York Times, Bernard Holland, wrote the following:

"The only completely successful Wagneresque opera ever written is Debussy's  Pelléas et Mélisande .

Do you agree with him ?

It was a passing comment while reviewing works by Chausson and Copland.

You can RTWT here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/arts/music/03orph.html?st=cse&sq=wagneresque&scp=1

[PSmith08]

To me, that is meaningless jibber-jabber. Wagner is Wagner and Debussy is Debussy.

There is some influence on Debussy by Wagner, but that statement implies that Debussy set out to write the sort of opera - which Wagner didn't really do after Holländer - that Wagner would have written.

I don't think Debussy intended to do that, since Wagner covered much the same thematic ground with Tristan.

Not that it matters, and I would assume that all that could be said about the instant work has been said.

[knight66]

Hansel and Gretel.

I rest my case.

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

Hansel and Gretel.

I rest my case.

Mike

Your case is airtight, Mike.

Sarge

[Christo]

Pelléas and Melisande, no doubt - AND of course Uguns un Nakts (1919) by Jānis Mediņš, another worthy contender

[knight66]

Uguns un Nakts (1919) by Jānis Mediņš.

Now you are going to get some kind of prize for this nomination. I have never heard of the work or its composer. Care to fill it out for us a bit?

Mike

[Ten thumbs]

As an opera, I'm not sure that Pelleas is entirely successful. I find that the overall tension of the storyline fails to stretch to the length of the work. Neither would I call it Wagneresque, whatever that means. However, if you are looking for contenders, I will suggest The WRECKERS.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Pelléas and Melisande, no doubt - AND of course Uguns un Nakts (1919) by Jānis Mediņš, another worthy contender

How could I forget him?!


Who he?

[Christo]

Uguns un Nakts (1919) by Jānis Mediņš. (...) Care to fill it out for us a bit?

Uguns un nakts (Fire and Night, 1913-1919) was one of the first `national' Latvian operas - the other being Baņuta by Alfrēds Kalniņš. After the Latvian independence, it was staged in the Opera of Riga in 1921. The libretto is based on a story by the Latvian national writer and poet, Jānis Rainis (as you might accidentally have observed, a central figure in the permanent exhibition of the Museum of Latvian Literature in Riga).

Uguns un nakts has remained Mediņš' most well-known opera. Other ones being: Dievi un cilvēki (Gods and Men, 1922), Sprīdītis (1925), Luteklīte (1939). As many Baltic composers and musicians, Mediņš (1890-1966) fled for the second Soviet occupation, in 1944, to Sweden. And as all other Baltic refugees there (e.g. Eduard Tubin, the Estonian), he was largely ignored by the Swedish musical establishment.

His operas are nowadays being staged in Riga again, but I was unable to attend one of them, so far.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Uguns un nakts (Fire and Night, 1913-1919) was one of the first `national' Latvian operas - the other being Baņuta by Alfrēds Kalniņš. After the Latvian independence, it was staged in the Opera of Riga in 1921. The libretto is based on a story by the Latvian national writer and poet, Jānis Rainis (as you might accidentally have observed, a central figure in the permanent exhibition of the Museum of Latvian Literature in Riga).

Uguns un nakts has remained Mediņš' most well-known opera. Other ones being: Dievi un cilvēki (Gods and Men, 1922), Sprīdītis (1925), Luteklīte (1939). As many Baltic composers and musicians, Mediņš (1890-1966) fled for the second Soviet occupation, in 1944, to Sweden. And as all other Baltic refugees there (e.g. Eduard Tubin, the Estonian), he was largely ignored by the Swedish musical establishment.

His operas are nowadays being staged in Riga again, but I was unable to attend one of them, so far.

Fascinating. Do you know anything about the musical style? Looking at his titles, they are all rather mythological. So - was Mediņš a Latvian Wagnerian?

[Christo]

Fascinating. Do you know anything about the musical style? Looking at his titles, they are all rather mythological. So - was Mediņš a Latvian Wagnerian?

As far as I know - yes, he was. And that's the reason I came up with his name. But alas, I know very little else, as I (a) hardly play any operas at all, and (b) happen to know only one Latvian opera, accidentally, namely the more traditional (`nationalist school') Baņuta, by Alfrēds Kalniņš. My interest lies more in Latvian symphonic composers, from Jāzeps Vītols to Pēteris Vasks,

Perhaps there's a better informed, Latvian Wagnerite in this forum?

[marvinbrown]

Earlier this week veteran classical music critic for The New York Times, Bernard Holland, wrote the following:

"The only completely successful Wagneresque opera ever written is Debussy's  Pelléas et Mélisande .

Do you agree with him ?

It was a passing comment while reviewing works by Chausson and Copland.

You can RTWT here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/arts/music/03orph.html?st=cse&sq=wagneresque&scp=1

  hmmm...not sure what reaction if any I'll get here but I find that verissimo operas (especially Tosca, Madam Butterfly Cav/Pag) to be very Wagneresque  .  I know that Puccini was sent to Bayreuth to attend a performance of Die Meistersinger before composing Manon Lescaut.  It is very possible that he was influenced by Wagner  .

  marvin

[(poco) Sforzando]

Perhaps there's a better informed, Latvian Wagnerite in this forum?

I am virtually certain that none here is as well informed as you.

[max]

  hmmm...not sure what reaction if any I'll get here but I find that verissimo operas (especially Tosca, Madam Butterfly Cav/Pag) to be very Wagneresque  .  I know that Puccini was sent to Bayreuth to attend a performance of Die Meistersinger before composing Manon Lescaut.  It is very possible that he was influenced by Wagner  .
  marvin

I find there is at least as much Wagner in Puccini as there is of Verdi. Also Puccini had more in common with Wagner's character, the womanizing for instance and a yearning for luxury.  The love scenes especially in Puccini are incredibly opulent far more so than anything I can think of in Verdi. Sometimes I wonder if practice makes perfect in art!

At least to some extent, the sound world of Puccini reminds me of Wagner but in Puccini's own magnificient Italian style.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I find there is at least as much Wagner in Puccini as there is of Verdi. Also Puccini had more in common with Wagner's character, the womanizing for instance and a yearning for luxury.  The love scenes especially in Puccini are incredibly opulent far more so than anything I can think of in Verdi. Sometimes I wonder if practice makes perfect in art!

At least to some extent, the sound world of Puccini reminds me of Wagner but in Puccini's own magnificient Italian style.

No doubt you're right. One of the main themes in Act Three of Tosca, for instance, is almost a direct ripoff from a theme in Parsifal.

[T-C]

Puccini admired Wagner. In my opinion, the opera which is the most influenced by Wagner Style, is La Fanciulla del West, where Puccini knowingly avoided writing noticeable arias (although he had a little 'accident' in the last act with "Ch'ella mi creda"...) and he used in La Fanciulla his largest and the most sophisticated set of leitmotivs.

[max]

Puccini admired Wagner. In my opinion, the opera which is the most influenced by Wagner Style, is La Fanciulla del West, where Puccini knowingly avoided writing noticeable arias (although he had a little ‘accident’ in the last act with “Ch'ella mi creda”…) and he used in La Fanciulla his largest and the most sophisticated set of leitmotivs.

...all I can say is NO ONE equals the Master of the Leitmotiv but  “Ch'ella mi creda” is worthy of the greatest composers as short as it is and especially as sung by Jussi Bjorling! In fact, you couldn't have picked a more Wagnerian Italianesque aria...accident or not, imo!

[max]

No doubt you're right. One of the main themes in Act Three of Tosca, for instance, is almost a direct ripoff from a theme in Parsifal.

That's a parallel which eluded me. Thanks for pointing it out. It's been a while since I listened to Tosca...one of the best marriages of Wagnerian weight to Italian melody I can think of!

Along that line I think Turandot could have been, if completed, one of his greatest conceptions. But one thing's for certain: I can't imagine any great Italian opera, Wagner emulated or not, without their corresponding great arias. The teutonic conception was always different from the Latin but their points of fusion have always been terrific investments in music. Mozart and I would include Handel were perhaps the Sine qua non of that endeavour.

[T-C]

...all I can say is NO ONE equals the Master of the Leitmotiv

Max,

What I really meant, is that in La Fanciulla del West Puccini had his most extensive and sophisticated use of leitmotiv in relation to other Puccini operas, not to Wagner's operas. Of course, no one can be compared in this aspect to Wagner of the Ring.

Another strong association of Wagner in La Fanciulla, is the kiss scene in Act II, where the door is suddenly opened and the winter breaks into the room. Very similar to Die Walküre end of Act I... But the use of whole-note scale here and elsewhere in La Fanciulla is an example of another strong influence on Puccini's style in that period: French impressionism, especially Debussy of Palleas et Melisande.

It was Anton Webern, who after hearing a performance of La Fanciulla del West in Vienna in 1919 wrote to his mentor Arnold Schoenberg: "La Fanciulla is a score with an original sound throughout, splendid, every bar a surprise... I enjoyed it very much..."

So, definitely, Puccini had a few good ideas of his own...

[Hector]

Hansel and Gretel.

I rest my case.

Mike

Which is Wagnerian but, if it had been written with a French libretto, would have been Wagneresque!