Who are the mediocrities of conducting?

[jochanaan]

Solti/CSO at the golden age of 1970's is definitely on par or even better than all of the ensembles you mentioned in your post...

That's not necessarily a good test.  Solti was building on a foundation laid by Rafael Kubelik, Jean Martinon and--especially--the legendary Fritz Reiner.

[jochanaan]

...You just said Solti didn't achieve "true artistic success". If you have an IQ higher than chipmunk, I think you know that is absolute BS and no one is going to agree with you, not even the most hostile of Solti haters...

And I suppose you can define "true artistic success" to everyone's satisfaction...? If, as you say, I'm a "truth-speaker," here's some truth for you: No one has yet done so, not here nor anywhere else.  I've not even tried.

And regarding Solti, he certainly does not always satisfy me; in fact, sometimes he's so completely off-base I have a hard time listening to his recordings, as when he takes the final Adagio from Mahler's Third Symphony so fast it's hardly recognizable.  Therefore, at least as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't achieve "true artistic success."  At least, not consistently.

Re Furtwaengler, I most definitely disagree about his supposed "mediocrity."  His performances are each unique and powerful.

[Haffner]

And I suppose you can define "true artistic success" to everyone's satisfaction...? If, as you say, I'm a "truth-speaker," here's some truth for you: No one has yet done so, not here nor anywhere else.  I've not even tried.

And regarding Solti, he certainly does not always satisfy me; in fact, sometimes he's so completely off-base I have a hard time listening to his recordings, as when he takes the final Adagio from Mahler's Third Symphony so fast it's hardly recognizable.  Therefore, at least as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't achieve "true artistic success."  At least, not consistently.

I'm hoping to check out the Solti Mahler 3rd soon, I also have the 4th (thanks to Mark). I'd certainly like to state for now that I thought Solti's Mahler 7th was really outstanding, especially the 1st movement.

[Novi]

And I suppose you can define "true artistic success" to everyone's satisfaction...? If, as you say, I'm a "truth-speaker," here's some truth for you: No one has yet done so, not here nor anywhere else.  I've not even tried.

You are, however, a voice in the wilderness ...

On the issue of Solti, his Mahler was also my first set, and while it used to get the adrenalin going - and it still does - I don't find myself going back to it very much. On the other hand, his Strauss operas get quite a work out.

[M forever]

I'm hoping to check out the Solti Mahler 3rd soon, I also have the 4th (thanks to Mark). I'd certainly like to state for now that I thought Solti's Mahler 7th was really outstanding, especially the 1st movement.

That's a very surprising opinion. I find that recording bizarrely bad, by far the worst of his whole Mahler cycle (which I don't think is all that great anyway, although there are some good moments here and there, but on the whole, it is a very one-dimensional affair). I think that Solti completely fails to make sense of the music - which is very hard, many interpreters have a hard time bringing across a convincing concept for this very complex and mysterious work which is why it's one of the least played Mahler symphonies - he just tramples through the piece and the way the orchestra blares and slashes through the music without all the parts fitting together at all, that is just nasty. All the more so since the CSO made one of the best recordings of the piece a few years later under Abbado. The difference between Abbado is not just different artistic temperaments and concepts, but that in Abbado's reading, the piece comes across much more coherent. Solti was pretty good at strong contrasts and driven drama, but I think the very subtle and elusive musical world of mahler's 7th completely eludes him.

One of the best Solti recordings that I know, BTW, is the Faust symphony (Liszt) with the CSO - here I think his maniacal drive is very apt for the music.

[jochanaan]

I'm hoping to check out the Solti Mahler 3rd soon...

You may wish to bypass the early one with the London Symphony; that's the one that has the rushed finale.  I don't know if the later ones are more measured or stick closer to Mahler's written directions...

[BorisG]

I do not see donwyn's "true artistic success" in such negative light.

Unless he clarifies otherwise, I choose to think that he meant Solti through his interpretations was a man who had underachieved. Lack of nuance being the prominent offender.

Many of us hold biases based on listening, about certain composers and performers.  While some of us are prejudicial. I read no prejudice in donwyn's opinion.

[Haffner]

different artistic temperaments and concepts, but that in Abbado's reading, the piece comes across much more coherent. Solti was pretty good at strong contrasts and driven drama, but I think the very subtle and elusive musical world of mahler's 7th completely eludes him.

One of the best Solti recordings that I know, BTW, is the Faust symphony (Liszt) with the CSO - here I think his maniacal drive is very apt for the music.

You know, M. I may have just been overwhelmed by both Solti's great sounding recordingof the symphomy, as well as the bombastic nature of the performance. It's a coincidence, but I just put the below DVD into my wish list on Amazon a couple of days ago, and now I read how good it is (I think it's the same performance, not sure).

[M forever]

You know, M. I may have just been overwhelmed by both Solti's great sounding recordingof the symphomy, as well as the bombastic nature of the performance. It's a coincidence, but I just put the below DVD into my wish list on Amazon a couple of days ago, and now I read how good it is (I think it's the same performance, not sure).

I don't find the Solti recording bombastic either (but of course you may, that is your priviledge), and it certainly doesn't sound good. That harsh, edgy, scratchy, overly bright recording is not what I would describe as "good sound", but I do know that a lot of people find that "exciting", and I am happy for them. But that is not what the CSO sounds either (nor did they with Solti, I have heard them live with him), it is just the totally misguided sound esthetic Decca employed when they recorded in Chicago. You may be interested to read this article: http://www.jayfriedman.net/reflections/20040108Equipment_-_Size_does_matter.php , the last 4 paragraphs address what I am talking about very directly.
The sound that DG achieved there with Abbado and Giulini is, apart from the very different personalities of these conductors and the much smoother and better balanced sound they got from the orchestra as a result, a much better representation of what the CSO actually sounds like, as are some of the Mahler recordings with Levine and even the live Mahler 5 with Solti - that was recorded in concert in Vienna, by Decca, too, but they didn't mess around with the sound as much there as in many of their studio recordings in the Windy City.
Musically, you can do worlds better than the Solti recording, too. Like I said, you can hear the same orchestra in an interpretation which is musically vastly superior - and orchestrally much better, too, the Solti recording sounds like a sightreading or second readthrough, and it appears that many of the orchestral players have no real concept of how their part fits into the whole, they just seem to sit there, especially the brass, count rest, and then blare their parts out. Some of the playing sounds really bad, too, like the long bass trombone solo in the middle of the first movement which sounds like some large animal regurgitating some smaller animal...
I don't know the Abbado DVD, but that's not with the CSO, it is with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra. There is also an Abbado recording with the BP which I haven't heard yet either.
If you want a Mahler 7 which is spectacular in every respect, musically, orchestrally, sonically, you should reach for Barenboim's recording with the Staatskapelle Berlin which surprised many who had never seen Barenboim as an interesting Mahler conductor (yours truly included). But it really is an outstanding performance in great and "natural" sound.

[Haffner]

.
If you want a Mahler 7 which is spectacular in every respect, musically, orchestrally, sonically, you should reach for Barenboim's recording with the Staatskapelle Berlin which surprised many who had never seen Barenboim as an interesting Mahler conductor (yours truly included). But it really is an outstanding performance in great and "natural" sound.

The Barenboim is on my wish list as of now. I am one of the not-too-many whom enjoy Barenboim's Wagner as well.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I do not see donwyn's "true artistic success" in such negative light.

Unless he clarifies otherwise, I choose to think that he meant Solti through his interpretations was a man who had underachieved. Lack of nuance being the prominent offender.

Many of us hold biases based on listening, about certain composers and performers.  While some of us are prejudicial. I read no prejudice in donwyn's opinion.

I think you've just about summed it up, Boris. Much obliged!

[eyeresist]

which sounds like some large animal regurgitating some smaller animal...

LOL!

[techniquest]

How about Anton Nanut? I don't know if I'd class him as 'mediocre' or 'underrated'. Some may say 'overrated'!
As for the bigger names in conducting being discussed here; I grew up with the Ozawa RCA recording of Orffs' Carmina Burana which I found brilliant. Levines' Mahler 6 is superb and his Mahler 3 not far behind. I saw Maazel conduct Mahler 8 on a televised concert many, many years ago and to watch and listen to his interpretation was magical. I have never enjoyed Solti's Mahler, nor Kubelik's but that's just me.
Previns Shostakovich 8 is excellent, but for Vaughan Williams I prefer Vernon Handley.
I grew up with some Ormandy recordings which are OK, but in terms of the topic subject I would class as mediocre e.g Shostakovich 4 / 15, Walton Belshazzars Feast.

[MN Dave]

How about Anton Nanut? I don't know if I'd class him as 'mediocre' or 'underrated'. Some may say 'overrated'!

I classify him as "never heard of."

[Brian]

How about Anton Nanut? I don't know if I'd class him as 'mediocre' or 'underrated'. Some may say 'overrated'!

Some mixed feelings there.

[BorisG]

How about Anton Nanut? I don't know if I'd class him as 'mediocre' or 'underrated'. Some may say 'overrated'!
As for the bigger names in conducting being discussed here; I grew up with the Ozawa RCA recording of Orffs' Carmina Burana which I found brilliant. Levines' Mahler 6 is superb and his Mahler 3 not far behind. I saw Maazel conduct Mahler 8 on a televised concert many, many years ago and to watch and listen to his interpretation was magical. I have never enjoyed Solti's Mahler, nor Kubelik's but that's just me.
Previns Shostakovich 8 is excellent, but for Vaughan Williams I prefer Vernon Handley.
I grew up with some Ormandy recordings which are OK, but in terms of the topic subject I would class as mediocre e.g Shostakovich 4 / 15, Walton Belshazzars Feast.

Apples and orange. Orange Nanut was regional. Based on a few of his Mahler recordings I heard, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, at getting the most he could out of a small under-powered, under-talented radio orchestra. It is not Mahler best, but it is respectable. One will finish the recording. So in this corner, we have Nanut the Overachiever.

[Drasko]

Apples and orange. Orange Nanut was regional. Based on a few of his Mahler recordings I heard, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, at getting the most he could out of a small under-powered, under-talented radio orchestra. It is not Mahler best, but it is respectable. One will finish the recording. So in this corner, we have Nanut the Overachiever.

Yes, based on few recordings and few live appearances of both the orchestra and him (separately) I'd agree.

[BachQ]

some large animal regurgitating some smaller animal...

I once had an avatar depicting that ..........

[Bonehelm]

I once had an avatar depicting that ..........

lol

[tab]

I'm to nominate Polyansky. His orchestra play worse and worse (in 2005-2006 everything was much better). At least he is very bad manager.