Who are the mediocrities of conducting?

[Haffner]

Nonsense, how can you possibly claim the future is unknown to us?

(Looking forward to it, by the way: I've little in the way of full Dvorak cycles - just 8ths and 9ths and 8ths and 9ths and... )


And that reminds me, I need to do the comparative review of Karajan Beethoven 9ths I'd once promised Mark. Not that I can guarantee Mark will ever read it, but I find it an interesting comparison to do, for its own sake.

I'm interested.

[BorisG]

Not counting pirates, atleast these for Karajan Beethoven 9 - '47, '55, '62, '68 (DVD), '77, '77 (DVD), '83, '83 (DVD).

[Renfield]

Not counting pirates, atleast these for Karajan Beethoven 9 - '47, '55, '62, '68 (DVD), '77, '77 (DVD), '83, '83 (DVD).

There's also a '62 live one, on the BPO's own label which, however, I'm unlikely to include.


And I think the late 70's one on DVD is from New Years' Eve '78. Edit: Though I'm not certain. I'll check.

Also, the 80's DVD is not from '83, or at the very least is not the CD performance. I don't know if the earlier one still exists on tape.

Otherwise, I've got them covered.

[BorisG]

There's also a '62 live one, on the BPO's own label which, however, I'm unlikely to include.


And I think the late 70's one on DVD is from New Years' Eve '78. Edit: Though I'm not certain. I'll check.

Also, the 80's DVD is not from '83, or at the very least is not the CD performance. I don't know if the earlier one still exists on tape.

Otherwise, I've got them covered.

'83 DVD, recorded on three September '83 nights, in Berlin. The CD is also September '83.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1238412&style=classical

'77 DVD (Dec. 31, 1977) -

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=2072408

[Renfield]

'83 DVD, recorded on three September '83 nights, in Berlin. The CD is also September '83.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1238412&style=classical

Interesting. Then I don't have this one. I've the later video recording from the 80's, unreleased on CD AFAIK:



It's certainly a different performance. And I thought the previous one wasn't released at all. Interesting indeed.

'77 DVD (Dec. 31, 1977) -

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=2072408

Well, technically, I was also right; though it was for the new year, but not in the new year for a few hours.

[knight66]

I was not too sure where to post this item, I did not want to start a new thread with it. It is about Welser Most and the Cleveland Orch. I see here that he is mentioned as being mediocre. I never did agree with that idea. Here is a very enthusiastic item about his recent concerts in Europe. There are a number of well thought of opera DVDs with him at the helm, but this article does make me want to hear him in concert mode.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/live_reviews/article4669365.ece

Mike

[M forever]

Clevaland Orchestra in Salzburg
A star was born in Salzburg as the Cleveland Orchestra outclassed its European rivals

It's Cleveland, not Clevaland. And it has been known for a while that it is a very good orchestra so that "star" wasn't "born" this year in Salzburg (incidentally, the Cleveland Orchestra in the 60s was the only orchestra that Karajan invited to Salzburg to work with him, apart from the BP and WP, of course, and the SD which came there three times to play under Karajan). Anyway, I am sure there is nothing of real interest to read in an article which starts like that, with sweeping generalizations and dramatic declarations. I am not surprised though that you like to read stuff like that.

[knight66]

I'm not surprised that your main issue here is to turn up to snipe. Of course, the idea that the orchestra may be producing better sound these days than the natives of Austria or Germany is probably the real sour grapeshot fueling you.

But the real point of the item is the praise for Welser Most...which was good to read from a press source previously hostile to him.

[M forever]

I'm not surprised that your main issue here is to turn up to snipe. Of course, the idea that the orchestra may be producing better sound these days than the natives of Austria or Germany is probably the real sour grapeshot fueling you.

Not at all. First of all, they don't produce "better" sound. One can't compare that so simplistically. Second, I myself have often praised this orchestra in particular. So you have absolutely no basis for saying what you said. You may apologize.

[knight66]

How do you know they don't produce a better sound? The critic who was there suggests that they do and further suggests that some German or Austrian critics thought the same...you did not hear the concerts in question. I have noticed before these assumptions that you know better than the people who were actually present and heard the events about which they comment.

But then the point was really about Welser Most, but you did indicate you had not bothered to read past a misprint.

[M forever]

How do you know they don't produce a better sound? The critic who was there suggests that they do and further suggests that some German or Austrian critics thought the same...you did not hear the concerts in question.

First of all, they don't produce "better" sound. One can't compare that so simplistically.

Second, I myself have often praised this orchestra in particular.

...and I have heard them a number of times live (with Dohnányi) so I know that they play and sound as good as they do on disc. I haven't heard them recently, but the live recordings I have heard strongly suggest that standards haven't dropped at all since then (which is also unlikely for an ensemble with such a high general level of players). So I can easily believe that those were very nice concerts.
But I generally object to these simplistic and sensationalist comparisons. Especially in music journalism. These orchestras all have  highly refined sound and playing styles, and one can't say one is generally "better".
For instance, the Cleveland basses play extremely well together and in tune, with a very focused section sound. You can call me biased if you want because I am good friends with the assistant principal. I took him and other section members out for drinks every time they came to Berlin. Anyway, they don't produce as much sound as the BP or WP bass sections, because they play on smaller instruments and on 4-strings with C-extension as opposed to the bigger 5-strings these other orchestras use, and because of the French bows they use, the sound is not as sustained. They change bows and break up the line more often. Does that make them worse? No. It's just a different style. One can compare the two styles and have personal preferences, or analyze what style may tendentially suit what kind of music better, but deciding one is generally better and the other worse is total nonsense.

And that's just one section. An orchestra has many sections and there are many differences between individual orchestras in how they play. And then how the orchestra as a whole plays together. And how individual player personalities influence the style and maybe emphasize their part of the spectrum. Which may be a good or bad thing, depending on one's point of view and preferences. For instance, the bravado and extrovert, exposed trumpet playing heard in London orchestras, especially in the days of Murphy and Wallace, is somehow "more" than a more integrated style of playing. Does that mean more=better? Or maybe it's "worse" because an orchestra is supposed to be an ensemble, not a collection of soloists? It doesn't really matter.

What matters is what one hears a the moment, how it all fits together, how good the music making is. The Cleveland Orchestra may be from the New World, but when they play the Symphony from the New World, the WP is much closer to the sound the composer heard in his day. Does that make them automatically "better"? No. What counts is the quality of the music making at that moment, when you are sitting there and listening to it.

[knight66]

Well, I have little problem with any of that. I was not there to hear the concerts and in fact linked the item for the comments on Welser Most. I do think it is difficult to contradict a report on a matter which is so frequently subjective; when I was not there. So, I am not supporting the item beyond noting that there seems to be a gathering sea change about Welser Most and I am glad to see it.

I read another item recently that praised his programming and his musicianship. I was reading the London papers years ago at a point when there was clearly a mood to pan him no matter what he did. So I assume he must be producing very fine concerts if he is altering the tone of the London press coverage.

[Sarastro]

Mr. Bonynge. Absolutely nothing outstanding, although a good rhythm-beater.

[knight66]

I think it was Bing at the Met who opined that to get Sutherland it was a case of accepting the meat with the bones. He did improve.

Mike

[Sarastro]

it was a case of accepting the meat with the bones.

It was. Although he improved, he never became an outstanding conductor, but I'd praise him for his hard work with Mrs. Sutherland. According to her memoirs (A Prima Donna's Progress), he was the first to suggest her to concentrate on the bel canto repertoire and worked lot with her at home to get the perfection she dazzled the public with. Before his conducting practice, however, he was a promising piano player -- that is how he happened to be in London before Sutherland was also chosen to go to the Royal Academy of Music. They both knew each other from Australia, where both were born and raised.

Ozawa

I remember how sick I was of Ozawa's The Queen of Spades, but substantially because of rather old Freni and other singers, though I didn't like Ozawa's reading of the score either.

[jochanaan]

I can't really take issue with the statements about Bonynge, but I can still remember hearing him lead Faust in Denver and, for the unaccompanied choral passage after Valentin's death in Act IV, drawing out of the Opera Colorado chorus a barely audible, brilliantly focused, incredibly beautiful ppp tone that haunts me still, the sort of jaw-dropping moment that made me think, "How do they DO that?!" That moment, for me, removed him from the "mediocrities" list.

Yet I think he was wise to stick to the bel canto repertoire for his own conducting too.

[M forever]

Well, for Denver standards, I am sure he is one the top people who appear there.

[eyeresist]

Sometimes I really wish we had a "catty" emoticon.

[Hector]

Sometimes I really wish we had a "catty" emoticon.

Brilliant idea!

Personally, I quite like Bonynge.

His revival of worthwhile operas and ballets on disc is commendable if not always successful.

Poor old Welser-Most got rubbished, unjustifiably, by the London critics, for some reason. But they are, mostly, journalists who no nothing about anything except...journalism.

[Superhorn]

   Hi  every  one !  I'm  new  here !   It's  easy  enough  to  call  a
conductor  "mediocre  if  you  happen  not  to  like  his  or  her  conducting,  but  I  don't  think  any  of  those  mentioned   are.
   Certainly  not  Mehta,  IMHO  the  most  UNDERRATED  and  unjustly
maligned  conductor  of  all  time.  It's  one  thing  if  certain  critics  or 
fans  don't  like  his  conducting ; that's  their  right.  But  I've  heard  Mehta  give  some  absoltely  terrific  performances,  and  he's  made  some  recordings  that  can hold  their  own  with  the  best.
    Critics  have  treated  him  the  way  conservatives  have  treated  Obama.  He's  been  accused  of  indifference  to  and  neglect  of  contemporary  music,  and  one  critic  accused  him  of  programming  nothing  but "easy  listening".  This  is  not  only  grossly  unfair, but  idiotically  untrue.  He  has  always  been  a  staunch  champion  of  difficult  new  music,  and  has  given  exemplary  performances.
   He's  not  just  a  shallow  glamot  boy,  but  a  serious, dedicated  and 
highly  skillful  conductor.  He  built  the  once  minor  league  Los  Angeles
Phil.  into  a  world  class  orchestra.  His  period  with  the  New  York
Phil.  was  viciously  savaged by  critics,  yet  I  heard  him  goive  some  absolutely great  concerts  with  them.  The  israel  philharmonic  appointed   him  music  director  for  life.  They  choose  their conductors;
do  you  think  they  would  have  done  this  if  mehta  were  a  mediocrity?   He's  also  a  terrific  opera  conductor.
   Orchestral  musicians  like  and  respect  him;  they  will  tell  you  that 
he  is  always  thoroughly  prepared  and professional,  and  that  his  stick
technique  is  second  to  none.