Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

Started by BachQ, April 07, 2007, 03:23:22 AM

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Symphonic Addict

#1120
I noticed a mildly curious pattern when Brahms assigned the keys to his symphonies:

Schumann                           Brahms

No. 1 in B flat major             No. 1 in C minor
No. 2 in C major                   No. 2 in D major
No. 3 in E flat major             No. 3 in F major
No. 4 in D minor                   No. 4 in E minor

Brahms assigned the next key of the ones by Schumann, whether a semitone or a tone upper, and exchanging major-minor in the case of the 1st Symphony.
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Madiel

Noting that Schumann's symphonies were not, in fact, written in that order.
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Mandryka

#1122
Someone put me on to this quite recently, like a couple of weeks ago. It's nice. I don't listen to the music often but I noticed a change in me - I've started to prefer the first sonata to the second, it used to be the opposite, I think - I mean 30 years ago!



https://www.discogs.com/fr/release/14671957-Johannes-Brahms-Rama-Jucker-Werner-Giger-Les-Deux-Sonates-Pour-Violoncelle-Et-Piano
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Symphonic Addict

Quote from: Madiel on October 22, 2021, 10:11:55 PM
Noting that Schumann's symphonies were not, in fact, written in that order.

True. It wouldn't have made any sense taking it with that order. I found it amusing, though.
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

DaveF

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 22, 2021, 08:43:30 PM
I noticed a mildly curious pattern when Brahms assigned the keys to his symphonies:

All a whole-tone higher, in fact.  If it were any other two composers, you would dismiss it as coincidence, but being Schumann and Brahms makes me wonder, especially given other similarities - the opening of Brahms 3 is a clear nod to the beginning of the Rhenish, for example.  Of course, there are many factors that determine a composer's choice of key for a symphony - the key in which the inspiration first comes to them, for example, if they have absolute pitch.  So I can't quite believe Brahms deliberately went for Schumann +1, but I also can't believe that he wouldn't have noticed and been rather pleased.  At least Brahms's symphonies are superior to Schumann's in one respect ;D (do I need to run for cover now?)
"All the world is birthday cake" - George Harrison

Symphonic Addict

Quote from: DaveF on October 23, 2021, 12:44:53 PM
All a whole-tone higher, in fact.  If it were any other two composers, you would dismiss it as coincidence, but being Schumann and Brahms makes me wonder, especially given other similarities - the opening of Brahms 3 is a clear nod to the beginning of the Rhenish, for example.  Of course, there are many factors that determine a composer's choice of key for a symphony - the key in which the inspiration first comes to them, for example, if they have absolute pitch.  So I can't quite believe Brahms deliberately went for Schumann +1, but I also can't believe that he wouldn't have noticed and been rather pleased.  At least Brahms's symphonies are superior to Schumann's in one respect ;D (do I need to run for cover now?)

I think the same there.

Is that respect quality?  0:)
Part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they have essentially no international support for a good reason: they've no wealth, they've no power, so they've no rights.

Noam Chomsky

Jo498

It seems not unlikely that the c minor of Brahms's first could be because of Beethoven's 5th. Similarly, the Schumann B flat major could be because of Beethoven's 4th to which it bears some resemblance and the "Rhenish" has the "heroic" E flat major.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Scion7

In Quarter Notes and Bank Notes: The Economics of Music Composition in the 18th and 19th Centuries, Harvard professor Frederic M. Scherer writes that few famous composers earned even a bourgeois living. A group of the 23 highest-paid composers, ranked by the size of the estates they left, shows Rossini to have been by far the richest, with an estate worth, in today's dollars, $9 million. Clementi, Handel, Paganini, Verdi and Brahms come next.

Yes, Brahms was spectacularly successful and was generous to his friends and those composers he wished to financially 'prop up' when they were trying to become established.  But the man himself lived a mean existence devoid of luxury (outside of some travelling) - his rooms were dire and devoid of comforts, consisting of a piano, books, reams of music, and the bare furnishings required for living. He often didn't wear socks, and the same suit was worn for years at a time.  His lunching in Vienna was always at cheap cafes eating the most economical of meals.  He was often uncouth and didn't spare the cutting remark from time to time.

And yet this man wrote music of burning passion and of great technical accomplishment ...
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Florestan

Quote from: Scion7 on October 26, 2021, 02:38:39 AM
In Quarter Notes and Bank Notes: The Economics of Music Composition in the 18th and 19th Centuries, Harvard professor Frederic M. Scherer writes that few famous composers earned even a bourgeois living. A group of the 23 highest-paid composers, ranked by the size of the estates they left, shows Rossini to have been by far the richest, with an estate worth, in today's dollars, $9 million. Clementi, Handel, Paganini, Verdi and Brahms come next.

Yes, Brahms was spectacularly successful and was generous to his friends and those composers he wished to financially 'prop up' when they were trying to become established.  But the man himself lived a mean existence devoid of luxury (outside of some travelling) - his rooms were dire and devoid of comforts, consisting of a piano, books, reams of music, and the bare furnishings required for living. He often didn't wear socks, and the same suit was worn for years at a time.  His lunching in Vienna was always at cheap cafes eating the most economical of meals.  He was often uncouth and didn't spare the cutting remark from time to time.

Brahms could never get rid of his stern, grim and  workaholic North German Protestant heritage, not even while living in Vienna most of his life; Rossini, otoh, remained the cheerful, easygoing and lazy Italian Catholic even while living in Paris most of his life. Needless to say, my kudos go to Gioacchino.  ;D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Jo498

I don't think it was only/mainly protestant heritage. Timing is a factor here. Brahms really was rather poor in his youth and didn't become rich until well into middle age (similar to Verdi, I think). He could not have retired in 1872 at 39 years old whereas Rossini was a star composer already in his early 20s.

I haven't read the book but to the author seems exaggerating the tight economical situation of famous composers. Of course it is hard to take into account precisely the differences between eras and everyone who has read Dickens knows that in the 19th century many reasonably well off people were often one untimely illness or one bad investment away from falling down hard, i.e. far more people with a middle or upper middle class lifestyle were in precarious situations, as soon as some disaster hit.

Of course many composers depended on performing for their income but this seems to be factored by the author because Paganini certainly earned his money mostly as performer.
But taking this into account, the only obviously poor famous composer that comes to mind was Schubert. There were some, like Beethoven or Wagner, with very variable circumstances but most were fairly solid middle class, at least after early/galley years.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Florestan

Quote from: Jo498 on October 29, 2021, 11:54:57 PM
I don't think it was only/mainly protestant heritage. Timing is a factor here. Brahms really was rather poor in his youth and didn't become rich until well into middle age (similar to Verdi, I think). He could not have retired in 1872 at 39 years old whereas Rossini was a star composer already in his early 20s.

True. Actually my remark was rather tongue-in-cheek.  :)

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Scion7

Quote from: Jo498 on October 29, 2021, 11:54:57 PM
I haven't read the book but to the author seems exaggerating the tight economical situation of famous composers. ....
But taking this into account, the only obviously poor famous composer that comes to mind was Schubert.

His bona fides are impeccable - you can take what he has written to heart. Mussorgsky is just one example of the many famous composers who led lives of trying to come up with scratch ...
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Jo498

I should have been more precise. The book might be detailed and good but that brief text in purple seems rather misleading to me. Mussorgsky is another cherry-picked example of an obviously struggling composer.
It mainly depends what one means with "bourgeois". Safe, comfortable, upper middle class (which usually was not as socially secure as most Western people are today) or merely middle class.
Almost all famous composers were middle class of their time (the most famous post 1600 composer we don't have a decent portrait of because he was too poor, might be Zelenka, anyone else somehow could afford to get painted, engraved etc., often several times during their life).
As I wrote above one has to take into account that 18th century middle class might mean precarious in many respects for our understanding.  Vivaldi died rather poor but he was not struggling/poor for most of his life; to claim this would be rather misleading and such a fate was not uncommon. Neither was the opposite as with Haydn or Brahms who came from very modest backgrounds and became rich as elderly men.

Mozart was often portrayed as struggling but this is severely misleading. He made typically as much or more money as a director or chief surgeon of the main hospital in Vienna (I read this probably in Braunbehrens' book "Mozart in Vienna") but he tended to live way above his means and therefore ran up debt.
Or Bach's status in Leipzig was probably comparable to a university professor but at this time this did not mean someone would not have to be quite thrifty, especially with many children.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Florestan

Quote from: Jo498 on October 31, 2021, 12:52:00 AM
Mussorgsky is another cherry-picked example of an obviously struggling composer.

Mussorgsky came from a wealthy family and in his youth was extremely elegant, refined and polite, even a tad foppish. His steep decline was mainly because of his ever-growing alcoholism and propensity to mingle mainly with other drunkards and dropouts.

Actually, the only 19-th century Russian composer I can think of who was destitute all throughout his (very short) life is Kalinnikov. All the famous ones, Glinka, Tchaikovsky, The Mighty Five save Mussorgsky, Glazunov, Rachmaninoff, Medtner, Scriabin were rather secure financially and enjoyed a comfortable, "bourgeois" life (although in their case one might better speak about an "aristocratic" life, given that many of them came from the lesser nobility).

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

kyjo

(Cross-posted from the "blown away" thread) A performance that has blown me away recently: Honeck and the Pittsburgh Symphony's new recording of Brahms 4:



A recording that once again proves the prowess of Honeck and the PSO as one of today's most inspiring conductor/orchestra teams. The first movement is expansive, beautifully lyrical, yet urgent when required, especially in the coda. The slow movement maintains the crucial flow that eludes some conductors, and the string chorale at the climax is jaw-droppingly rich and sonorous. The scherzo sounds more dynamic, brilliant, and exciting than I've heard before. Honeck brings out the darkly tragic element in the finale, with keenly judged, flexible tempi. It's tremendously fiery and passionate, with the ethereal middle section providing the requisite contrast. While I cannot claim to be an expert in Brahms symphony recordings, I don't see any reason why this new version should not be one of the finest available. James MacMillan's solemnly moving Larghetto is a substantial bonus!
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

Jo498

Good point. I think one should try to keep in mind the relation to other professions, artistical or not. As I said, many solidly middle class people in the 19th century were one illness, death of the breadwinner, failed business or investment, or something like alcohol/opium addiction away from falling into poverty (or at least into a desperate struggle to keep up with some semblance of lower middle class). Obviously, artists with often widely fluctuating incomes (like Mozart) were especially precarious. But that doesn't mean they were living in a shack or attic like in La Bohème, even when over their head in debt.

In the 17th and 18th century I think the high level cantorial positions like Bach in Leipzig or Telemann in Hamburg were comparable to university professors or other middle-to-high-rank civil servants (e.g. in law or administration), and if the comparable positions at courts might have been more subordinate to specific court protocols, they were probably in some cases better paid. Of course, as with Haydn's first court position, even noblemen could get broke and have to close down their orchestras...
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

SonicMan46

Well for Brahms fans - today I'm starting a perusal of my collection which amounts to 60+ CDs w/ some duplications/triplications (or more?) - first up are the Cello Sonatas - now have the 4 discs shown below, 2 MIs and 2 PIs - I did own some of the older recommended recordings but culled out several due to storage issues.  Enjoying both the MI discs, but as to the PIs, I have a preference for Melkonyan-Balyan (like the instruments used more and deeper up-front sound to my ears) - reviews are attached, but could not find any for the M-B PI recording?  What are some of the favorites here?  Dave :)


SonicMan46

Brahms, Richard Mülhfeld, and the clarinet - one of my favorite instruments, either period or modern.  Brahms came late to the clarinet, the first half of the 1890s (story below) - he composed a quintet, trio, and two sonatas - I've collected a lot of this music w/ much duplication - currently own the recordings below, several being double-disc packages.  The Florestan Trio is a double-CD set w/ mainly the Piano Trios and also the trios for clarinet and horn; the Jean-Claude Veilhan is a favorite w/ the Mozart and Brahms Quintets, played on some interesting instruments.  For those 'new' to these works and wanting just a 'starter set', I would recommend the 2-disc wallet w/ Laura Ruiz Ferreres - she does all four works.  Dave :)

QuoteDuring his later years, Johannes Brahms was a frequent visitor to the town of Meiningen, where the Grand Duke had a fine orchestra that performed Brahms' music. Early in 1891, Brahms the clarinetist Richard Mülhfeld, perform chamber works by Mozart and Weber. Brahms was so impressed that they became friends. Listening to Mülhfeld play, Brahms became so enthusiastic about the clarinet's possibilities that he began writing chamber works for Mülhfeld. Brahms was always particularly fond of the female alto voice, whose timbre is similar to the clarinet's, and so Brahms promptly nicknamed Mülhfeld "Fraeulein Clarinet" or the "new primadonna." For Mülhfeld, Brahms first wrote a clarinet trio, which was followed by a clarinet quintet, and finally, a pair of clarinet sonatas, both composed in the summer of 1894. (Source - edited)




SonicMan46

Brahms - String Quartets, Quintets, & Sextets w/ the groups shown below - I've been selectively listening and comparing these recordings in my collection the last few days; reviews of all attached in two PDFs - I was thinking of culling out the Piers Lane/New Budapest Quartet Dyad set but the Piano Quintet w/ Lane is better to my ears that that w/ Leon Fischer on the Emerson's disc, so a keeper - I'm sure there are LOTS of other excellent recordings of that piano work.  I could also eliminate the Raphael Ensemble in the Sextets (the Alexanders are just superb) but reviews are good and nice to have alternate interpretations - SO, all keepers for me!  For those just getting into some of these string pieces, the reviews and streaming options will certainly help make decisions.  Dave :)

   

   

LKB

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2022, 08:04:58 AM
Well for Brahms fans - today I'm starting a perusal of my collection which amounts to 60+ CDs w/ some duplications/triplications (or more?) - first up are the Cello Sonatas - now have the 4 discs shown below, 2 MIs and 2 PIs - I did own some of the older recommended recordings but culled out several due to storage issues.  Enjoying both the MI discs, but as to the PIs, I have a preference for Melkonyan-Balyan (like the instruments used more and deeper up-front sound to my ears) - reviews are attached, but could not find any for the M-B PI recording?  What are some of the favorites here?  Dave :)



Du Pre/Barenboim is excellent, and l think there was a film made in the studio which you might find as a Warner/EMI DVD.

My imprint recording was Ma/Ax on CBS/ Sony, not as powerful as Du Pre but still very good. I'm afraid those are the only recordings I've bothered with, my interest in chamber music has always been rather minimal.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...