Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[Jo498]

Of the 16 shown I only know (and have) the 'cello sonatas with Wispelwey and the Raphael sextets. The latter was my first and for many years only recording and I love it and think it is great. The only slight minus is that the op.18 is without repeat in the first movement. For an alternative to their beautiful and somewhat relaxed approach a strong contrast would be provided by the Archibudelli (Sony) who are quite fast and a bit "lean and mean" but it works also very well.

Haven't heard any of these recent Clarinet quintet recordings as I have so many that I stopped buying new ones for a while. Ferreres teaches in Germany, so I am not sure about her but none of the other players is from the "German/Austrian" school. The great historic recording (decent mono) is with Wlach from the 1950s (not sure about availability) and the longtime (Karajan era) Berlin principal Leister made about 5 recordings of the piece.

It's been a while I listened to the 'cello sonatas. In fact, the Wispelwey is the only separate discs of them I have. (I got rid of Schiff/Oppitz for some reason many years ago although it seems a fairly highly regarded recording.) My "imprint" was Piatigorsky/Rubinstein that is a bit rough but very energetic and Rubinstein is always superb in Brahms. I also have Starker/Sebok (a bit cool) in another box set. The 2nd sonata is not really a favorite anyway... I have another beautiful lyrical recording of the e minor with Vogler (w/ Schubert's Arpeggione) but I now prefer the violin sonatas overall and have not been seeking out more recordings of the 'cello sonatas.

For the piano quintet I mostly stuck with the usual suspects: Pollini/Italiano or even better Rubinstein/Guarneri. A good lesser known one is Solchany/Hungarian + Glazer in the clarinet q. on a single budget EMI disc (rec. late 1960s). I was a bit disappointed by the 1960s Fleisher/Juilliard (too cool).

The string quartets are pieces considered "difficult"; while I never really found them that difficult I seem to have acquired many recordings without having a clear favorite. Maybe again the first I had, ABQ's 1970s (Teldec).

[Mandryka]

Brahms - String Quartets, Quintets, & Sextets w/ the groups shown below - I've been selectively listening and comparing these recordings in my collection the last few days; reviews of all attached in two PDFs - I was thinking of culling out the Piers Lane/New Budapest Quartet Dyad set but the Piano Quintet w/ Lane is better to my ears that that w/ Leon Fischer on the Emerson's disc, so a keeper - I'm sure there are LOTS of other excellent recordings of that piano work.  I could also eliminate the Raphael Ensemble in the Sextets (the Alexanders are just superb) but reviews are good and nice to have alternate interpretations - SO, all keepers for me!  For those just getting into some of these string pieces, the reviews and streaming options will certainly help make decisions.  Dave

   

   

There is a new one of the string quartets which you won't regret trying - Dudok Quartet Amsterdam.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/streichqartette-1-3-streichquintett-2/hnum/10731822

[amw]

Of the 16 shown I only know (and have) the 'cello sonatas with Wispelwey and the Raphael sextets. The latter was my first and for many years only recording and I love it and think it is great. The only slight minus is that the op.18 is without repeat in the first movement. For an alternative to their beautiful and somewhat relaxed approach a strong contrast would be provided by the Archibudelli (Sony) who are quite fast and a bit "lean and mean" but it works also very well.

Even more extreme in this respect is the Berlin Philharmonic Octet/Philharmonisches Oktett Berlin (on Philips). The Raphael Ensemble is really more of a middle-ground approach (as is the Alexander Quartet et al. and many others, e.g., Pražák Quartet et al, Nash Ensemble, Hausmusik); for the ultra-relaxed approach, one would want Vienna Konzerthaus Quartet et al., Talich Quartet et al., Wiener Streichsextett.

The two period instrument recordings (Hausmusik and Archibudelli) are my usual recommendations but there are almost no bad recordings of these pieces, and one wants multiple approaches, generally.

Haven't heard any of these recent Clarinet quintet recordings as I have so many that I stopped buying new ones for a while. Ferreres teaches in Germany, so I am not sure about her but none of the other players is from the "German/Austrian" school. The great historic recording (decent mono) is with Wlach from the 1950s (not sure about availability) and the longtime (Karajan era) Berlin principal Leister made about 5 recordings of the piece.

The Leister recording I have is with the Leipziger Streichquartett, which is pretty good. But in general I turn to the two recordings by the Fitzwilliam Quartet (one with Alan Hacker, one with Lesley Schatzberger), two of the recordings by Sharon Kam (one with the Jerusalem Quartet, one with Keulen, Mathé, Jacobsen and Rivinius), and—depending on how depressed I am—Jörg Widmann's recording with the Hagen Quartet. (YouTube has a live performance with him and the Diotima Quartet from Schwetzingen, which is equally good/depressing. 14+ minute opening movements seem to be his "thing".)

It's been a while I listened to the 'cello sonatas. In fact, the Wispelwey is the only separate discs of them I have. (I got rid of Schiff/Oppitz for some reason many years ago although it seems a fairly highly regarded recording.) My "imprint" was Piatigorsky/Rubinstein that is a bit rough but very energetic and Rubinstein is always superb in Brahms. I also have Starker/Sebok (a bit cool) in another box set. The 2nd sonata is not really a favorite anyway... I have another beautiful lyrical recording of the e minor with Vogler (w/ Schubert's Arpeggione) but I now prefer the violin sonatas overall and have not been seeking out more recordings of the 'cello sonatas.

I generally consider the Marc Coppey/Peter Laul recording of the cello sonatas the most essential, although the performances by Perényi/Kocsis are even better, perhaps the best overall (but the sound on their recording is not as good and you just get the two canonical sonatas; Coppey and Laul also include the Brahms/Klengel op. 78). There's also something to be said for Demarquette/Dalberto, who also include op. 78, although the only way to get hold of this at the moment is through the Michel Dalberto Erato box (which is worth it in any case).

I also tend to prefer op. 38. I somewhat prefer op. 78 on cello to the original version on violin, as heretical as this may be. (Pieter Wispelwey made his own arrangement, retaining the original key rather than transposing to D major, as part of his series of arrangements of the complete solo string works of Brahms and Schubert, available on the "coda" to that set of recordings; it's also worth hearing.)

As for the violin sonatas, I've probably expressed my thoughts here before: Frank/Serkin, Grumiaux/Sebők, Osostowicz/Tomes, in that order. For the first one you'll need to turn the volume about six notches up. Also the op. 78 and 108 in the "Josef Suk: Early Recordings" box and possibly the op. 78 by Kagan and Richter, but the latter might just be my preference for very flowing tempi in the first movement speaking.

For the piano quintet I mostly stuck with the usual suspects: Pollini/Italiano or even better Rubinstein/Guarneri. A good lesser known one is Solchany/Hungarian + Glazer in the clarinet q. on a single budget EMI disc (rec. late 1960s). I was a bit disappointed by the 1960s Fleisher/Juilliard (too cool).

I almost never listen to the piano quintet; when I do I usually aim for La Gaia Scienza (period instruments) or Staier/Leipzig (modern instruments). Other recordings in a similar tempo range that I think I might enjoy but haven't actually listened to yet include Hough/Takács and Klanský/Pražák.

The string quartets are pieces considered "difficult"; while I never really found them that difficult I seem to have acquired many recordings without having a clear favorite. Maybe again the first I had, ABQ's 1970s (Teldec).

The Dudok Quartet indeed seems to be pretty good (the only period instruments recording). I've otherwise historically relied upon a combination of Auryn, Belcea and Pražák. I believe there's also a very good (possibly mono) recording by the Végh Quartet.

[staxomega]

The best performances I've heard of the Cello Sonatas are Lucchesini/Brunello. Gorgeous heartfelt playing from both of them, especially Brunello who isn't dry in the least.

[SonicMan46]

Du Pre/Barenboim is excellent, and l think there was a film made in the studio which you might find as a Warner/EMI DVD.

My imprint recording was Ma/Ax on CBS/ Sony, not as powerful as Du Pre but still very good. I'm afraid those are the only recordings I've bothered with, my interest in chamber music has always been rather minimal.

Thanks LKB for the comments on the cello works - culled out Du Pre a long while ago (I guess the aged sound?) - I'm happy w/ what I illustrated and the reviews are excellent - there are a lot of choices and personal preferences are always a dominant factor in deciding what to own and keep.  Dave

[SonicMan46]

There is a new one of the string quartets which you won't regret trying - Dudok Quartet Amsterdam.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/streichqartette-1-3-streichquintett-2/hnum/10731822

Thanks Mandryka for the Dudok recommendation - just found the recording on Spotify and will take a listen and see if any reviews are available, although I must say that the ones in my collection will be hard to top - all in one's ears and interpretation, I guess?  Dave

[SonicMan46]

Even more extreme in this respect is the Berlin Philharmonic Octet/Philharmonisches Oktett Berlin (on Philips). The Raphael Ensemble is really more of a middle-ground approach (as is the Alexander Quartet et al. and many others, e.g., Pražák Quartet et al, Nash Ensemble, Hausmusik); for the ultra-relaxed approach, one would want Vienna Konzerthaus Quartet et al., Talich Quartet et al., Wiener Streichsextett.

The two period instrument recordings (Hausmusik and Archibudelli) are my usual recommendations but there are almost no bad recordings of these pieces, and one wants multiple approaches, generally.
The Leister recording I have is with the Leipziger Streichquartett, which is pretty good. But in general I turn to the two recordings by the Fitzwilliam Quartet (one with Alan Hacker, one with Lesley Schatzberger), two of the recordings by Sharon Kam (one with the Jerusalem Quartet, one with Keulen, Mathé, Jacobsen and Rivinius), and—depending on how depressed I am—Jörg Widmann's recording with the Hagen Quartet. (YouTube has a live performance with him and the Diotima Quartet from Schwetzingen, which is equally good/depressing. 14+ minute opening movements seem to be his "thing".)
I generally consider the Marc Coppey/Peter Laul recording of the cello sonatas the most essential, although the performances by Perényi/Kocsis are even better, perhaps the best overall (but the sound on their recording is not as good and you just get the two canonical sonatas; Coppey and Laul also include the Brahms/Klengel op. 78). There's also something to be said for Demarquette/Dalberto, who also include op. 78, although the only way to get hold of this at the moment is through the Michel Dalberto Erato box (which is worth it in any case).

I also tend to prefer op. 38. I somewhat prefer op. 78 on cello to the original version on violin, as heretical as this may be. (Pieter Wispelwey made his own arrangement, retaining the original key rather than transposing to D major, as part of his series of arrangements of the complete solo string works of Brahms and Schubert, available on the "coda" to that set of recordings; it's also worth hearing.)

As for the violin sonatas, I've probably expressed my thoughts here before: Frank/Serkin, Grumiaux/Sebők, Osostowicz/Tomes, in that order. For the first one you'll need to turn the volume about six notches up. Also the op. 78 and 108 in the "Josef Suk: Early Recordings" box and possibly the op. 78 by Kagan and Richter, but the latter might just be my preference for very flowing tempi in the first movement speaking.
I almost never listen to the piano quintet; when I do I usually aim for La Gaia Scienza (period instruments) or Staier/Leipzig (modern instruments). Other recordings in a similar tempo range that I think I might enjoy but haven't actually listened to yet include Hough/Takács and Klanský/Pražák.
The Dudok Quartet indeed seems to be pretty good (the only period instruments recording). I've otherwise historically relied upon a combination of Auryn, Belcea and Pražák. I believe there's also a very good (possibly mono) recording by the Végh Quartet.

Thanks AMW - a LOT to 'digest' relative to what I own and have been culling for years, and am pretty satisfied - BUT, you mentioned some names that have been favorites over the years, e.g. Hacker and L'Archibudelli - much to contemplate and will take time depending on availability -    Thanks again - Dave

[Mandryka]

Thanks Mandryka for the Dudok recommendation - just found the recording on Spotify and will take a listen and see if any reviews are available, although I must say that the ones in my collection will be hard to top - all in one's ears and interpretation, I guess?  Dave

IMO it's a paradigm changing interpretation. Like Leila Schayegh's violin sonatas.

[SonicMan46]

IMO it's a paradigm changing interpretation. Like Leila Schayegh's violin sonatas.

Hi again Mandryka - just finished my listen of the Dudok Quartet on Spotify and was 'blown away' w/ the sound on gut strings (instruments used described below from the PDF attachment) - already ordered the 2-CD set on Amazon USA (no bargains around being a newly released recording) - NOW, I'll cull out my least favorite performance in my collection w/ the New Budapest group; however, includes a nice version of the Piano Quintet w/ Piers Lane; SO, for anyone viewing this thread, recommendations of your favorite KB Quartet performances - would be interested in fortepiano versions, if available?  Thanks all.  Dave

The Quartet performs on instruments generously on loan from the Dutch Musical Instrument Foundation (NMF); violins by Francesco Goffriller and Vincenzo Panormo, viola by Max Möller and cello by Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume. It takes its name from renowned Dutch architect Willem Marinus Dudok (1884–1974). (Attachment)

 

[amw]

I believe La Gaia Scienza are the only ones who perform the piano quintet on period instruments (paired with the C minor piano quartet). I could be wrong, of course.

[SonicMan46]

I believe La Gaia Scienza are the only ones who perform the piano quintet on period instruments (paired with the C minor piano quartet). I could be wrong, of course.

Thanks amw - although I own a lot of period instrument music, La Gala Scienza has flown under my radar - the recording in question is available on Spotify, so will take a listen (shown below) - the price on Amazon USA is steep so an audition is in order; however the reviews (THERE) are mostly 5* (w/ one from Gio who I respect) except for one 2* - will be an interesting listen. The other recording of the Piano Quintet w/ excellent reviews (paired w/ the Horn Trio) is an older one from the Nash Ensemble which I listened to this morning on Spotify and enjoyed, but again hard to find and at a 'comfortable price'?  Dave

   

[SonicMan46]

Symphonies - well getting to the end of my Brahms collection (only the violin stuff left -  ) - currently own the 3 sets shown below and today listened to a few works from each and put together yet another review PDF (attached) - over the decades I've probably 'culled out' an equal number if not more, cannot remember - 

After reviewing the 'symphony posts' in this thread, I was amazed at some of the collections, many older and I'm sure some 'new' recordings have appeared more recently - of the ones shown, I still love the 'Mackerras Approach' and greatly enjoyed hearing the Dohnanyi w/ the Cleveland Orchestra (Ohio - the state of my birthplace down the road west in Toledo) - the Janowski may not be his best cycle?  I could go for a replacement - so just curious what others are enjoying and whether any newer releases have thrilled?  Thanks for any comments and I'm sure others just getting into Johannes and his orchestral works will be appreciative - Dave

ADDENDUM: for those interested, checked out Dave Hurwitz's YouTube Review of Brahm's Symphony Cycles - he is quite positive for the Mackerras & Dohnanyi recordings (Janowski was not mentioned).

   

[Scion7]

ADDENDUM: for those interested, checked out Dave Hurwitz's ... Review of Brahm's Symphony Cycles - he is quite positive for the Mackerras & Dohnanyi recordings (Janowski was not mentioned).

But 75% of the time the man is full of hot air - 'orrible critic - not really a go-to sort of support for opinions, good or bad.

[amw]

Symphonies - well getting to the end of my Brahms collection (only the violin stuff left -  ) - currently own the 3 sets shown below and today listened to a few works from each and put together yet another review PDF (attached) - over the decades I've probably 'culled out' an equal number if not more, cannot remember - 

After reviewing the 'symphony posts' in this thread, I was amazed at some of the collections, many older and I'm sure some 'new' recordings have appeared more recently - of the ones shown, I still love the 'Mackerras Approach' and greatly enjoyed hearing the Dohnanyi w/ the Cleveland Orchestra (Ohio - the state of my birthplace down the road west in Toledo) - the Janowski may not be his best cycle?  I could go for a replacement - so just curious what others are enjoying and whether any newer releases have thrilled?  Thanks for any comments and I'm sure others just getting into Johannes and his orchestral works will be appreciative - Dave

ADDENDUM: for those interested, checked out Dave Hurwitz's YouTube Review of Brahm's Symphony Cycles - he is quite positive for the Mackerras & Dohnanyi recordings (Janowski was not mentioned).

   

As one of the people with 20+ Brahms cycles (at last count: Asher Fisch, Bruno Walter x2, Ernest Ansermet, Rafael Kubelík x2, István Kertész, Emmanuel Krivine, Christian Thielemann, Roger Norrington x2, Takashi Asahina, Robin Ticciati, Eugen Jochum x1, Kirill Kondrashin, Antal Doráti, Marek Janowski x1, Bernard Haitink x1, Paavo Järvi, Christoph Eschenbach, John Eliot Gardiner, Leonard Bernstein x1, Eugene Ormandy, Michael Gielen, Charles Mackerras, Rudolf Kempe x1, Christoph von Dohnányi x2, Günter Wand x1) I think you're probably fine. I haven't heard a lot of the new (well, new-in-the-last-decade) releases—I enjoyed Ticciati, Järvi and Thielemann obviously, thought Manze, Venzago and Zehetmair were okay, own one volume by Saraste but never bothered with the rest, and haven't gotten around to listening to Dausgaard, although it would almost certainly appeal to someone who likes Mackerras based on the promos. I also have the sole volume of the ongoing series by Edward Gardner, which is very good but in a more traditional big-band style, although that happens to be what I like anyway.

My reference recordings are: #1 Jochum (London) and Furtwängler (Berlin 1951), #2 Chailly (Concertgebouw) and Walter (New York), #3 Kertész and Walter (Columbia), #4 Jochum (London and Berlin). That said, these are heterodox choices and I generally consider Kertész the best middle-of-the-road cycle, Mackerras the best of the faster/leaner/etc cycles (with an honourable mention to Norrington LCP), and Kubelík (Bavarian Radio) the best of the slower/denser/larger-band/etc cycles (with an honourable mention to Thielemann, mostly for the Dresden Staatskapelle winds).

[SonicMan46]

As one of the people with 20+ Brahms cycles (at last count: Asher Fisch, Bruno Walter x2, Ernest Ansermet, Rafael Kubelík x2, István Kertész, Emmanuel Krivine, Christian Thielemann, Roger Norrington x2, Takashi Asahina, Robin Ticciati, Eugen Jochum x1, Kirill Kondrashin, Antal Doráti, Marek Janowski x1, Bernard Haitink x1, Paavo Järvi, Christoph Eschenbach, John Eliot Gardiner, Leonard Bernstein x1, Eugene Ormandy, Michael Gielen, Charles Mackerras, Rudolf Kempe x1, Christoph von Dohnányi x2, Günter Wand x1) I think you're probably fine. I haven't heard a lot of the new (well, new-in-the-last-decade) releases—I enjoyed Ticciati, Järvi and Thielemann obviously, thought Manze, Venzago and Zehetmair were okay, own one volume by Saraste but never bothered with the rest, and haven't gotten around to listening to Dausgaard, although it would almost certainly appeal to someone who likes Mackerras based on the promos. I also have the sole volume of the ongoing series by Edward Gardner, which is very good but in a more traditional big-band style, although that happens to be what I like anyway.

My reference recordings are: #1 Jochum (London) and Furtwängler (Berlin 1951), #2 Chailly (Concertgebouw) and Walter (New York), #3 Kertész and Walter (Columbia), #4 Jochum (London and Berlin). That said, these are heterodox choices and I generally consider Kertész the best middle-of-the-road cycle, Mackerras the best of the faster/leaner/etc cycles (with an honourable mention to Norrington LCP), and Kubelík (Bavarian Radio) the best of the slower/denser/larger-band/etc cycles (with an honourable mention to Thielemann, mostly for the Dresden Staatskapelle winds).

Thanks amw for your further comments!     Yeh, Hurwitz can be a 'wind bag' but this time he supports the two in my Brahms collection that I also enjoy - but WOW, 20 cycles!  I've not made a decision yet on replacing Janowski, but 3 cycles will serve my needs - Dave

[amw]

I only have Janowski's Pittsburgh cycle, not his Liverpool one—have not heard the latter, don't expect very significant differences, and chose the Pittsburgh one because I prefer that orchestra (probably my second favourite American orchestra overall, after Chicago). Although the Liverpool cycle isn't available on streaming services, the Pittsburgh one is, so it should be relatively easy for you to do an A:B comparison if the mood strikes you (my usual comparison movements are the last movement of No. 3 and the third movement of No. 2, in that order).

[SonicMan46]

I only have Janowski's Pittsburgh cycle, not his Liverpool one—have not heard the latter, don't expect very significant differences, and chose the Pittsburgh one because I prefer that orchestra (probably my second favourite American orchestra overall, after Chicago). Although the Liverpool cycle isn't available on streaming services, the Pittsburgh one is, so it should be relatively easy for you to do an A:B comparison if the mood strikes you (my usual comparison movements are the last movement of No. 3 and the third movement of No. 2, in that order).

Well, I looked at reviews of Janowski w/ Pittsburgh vs. Liverpool and both were quite good, however, felt that the ones w/ the Pittsburgers were favored slightly - below are Jerry Dubins 'ending comments' in a Fanfare review on the Liverpool performances - believe a recommendation; BUT, I'll look on Spotify and do the comparison you suggested; unfortunately, the Pittsburg recordings are on 3 discs at inflated prices or OOP, so likely not a purchase for me.  Thanks again - Dave

Janowski offers much more sensible tempos, and, as mentioned, takes the designated exposition repeats. The recordings have a great deal more presence and impact, and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic turns in some of the most polished wind- and brass-playing to be had on disc. I can't say that this set displaces my two current preferred versions—one in mono with Bruno Walter conducting the New York Philharmonic, (sans repeats, so I'm not obsessive about it) the other more recent with Neville Marriner (with repeats) conducting the ASMF on Hänssler Classic—but even minus the serenades, the Janowski at $25.99 is a far better bargain than the Bělohlávek at $32.99. For a more than decent set of Brahms's symphonies, overtures, and Haydn Variations at an excellent price, Janowski is your man. In fact, I have to say that the more I listen to these performances, the more persuasive I find them. Jerry Dubins

[Roasted Swan]

BIS have recently repackaged the Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra 4 discs as a "4 discs for 2" bargain.  I have enjoyed these a lot.  Yes tempi are often fleet but this does NOT sound like "Chamber Brahms".  Ensemble is superb - these are brilliantly played dynamic performances.  Quite similar to Mackerras - there the Telarc recording is a bit more in your face.  The Dausgaard benefits from extensive/interesting fillers including Dausgaard's own arrangements of the Hungarian Dances.  Not works I listen to that often but quite scintillating here.......

[SonicMan46]

BIS have recently repackaged the Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra 4 discs as a "4 discs for 2" bargain.  I have enjoyed these a lot.  Yes tempi are often fleet but this does NOT sound like "Chamber Brahms".  Ensemble is superb - these are brilliantly played dynamic performances.  Quite similar to Mackerras - there the Telarc recording is a bit more in your face.  The Dausgaard benefits from extensive/interesting fillers including Dausgaard's own arrangements of the Hungarian Dances.  Not works I listen to that often but quite scintillating here.......

Thanks RS for the comments above - the reviews from Fanfare were quite good, but several mediocre ones from AllMusic and ClassicsToday complaining mainly about the size of the orchestra and swift tempos - also recorded 'live' I believe so audience noise will be none buy for me - these are available on Spotify so will take a listen.  Dave

[Roasted Swan]

Thanks RS for the comments above - the reviews from Fanfare were quite good, but several mediocre ones from AllMusic and ClassicsToday complaining mainly about the size of the orchestra and swift tempos - also recorded 'live' I believe so audience noise will be none buy for me - these are available on Spotify so will take a listen.  Dave

The comments about audience noise are nonsense! I've listened to this set over headphones and speakers and was not aware of a SINGLE "noises off" - and I am quite picky about this.  Also, what is remarkable is that is NO WAY does this sound like small-scale Brahms.  Yes tempi are swift - sometimes surprisingly so but to dismiss it out of hand is simply because of familiarity not because there is anything systemically "wrong" here.  You could easily counter the argument by saying Dausgaard is truer to the "con brio" marking than any Klemperer etc.........!!  The Hurwitz reviews on Classics Today are his usual invective - I simply do not recognise the performances he describes.  To say Dausgaard's arrangement of the Hungarian Dances are amateurish is perplexing.  Hurwitz gets a bee in his bonnet about certain repertoire/performers/critics etc etc and then he only seeks to reinforce that opinion with his own reviews thereby creating a body of reviews which are negative or - in the case of Leonard Slatkin - almost universally positive.  As ever the truth lies somewhere between.  These Brahms performances are certainly worth a listen.  They might not be your cup of tea but to suggest they are musically poor/inept/amateurish is ignorant and rude.  But that if often what Hurwitz does best............