Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[Jo498]

Personally, I wish Brahms had written at least one "stormy/passionate" symphonic scherzo in the manner of those found in his Piano Concerto no. 2, Piano Quintet, Piano Quartet no. 3, Cello Sonata no. 2, Violin Sonata no. 3, etc.

Agreed. I appreciate the broader range of "scherzo"/intermezzo movements established after Beethoven (Mendelssohn was probably the first in chamber music although there are of course precursors) but I think only rarely have composers reached the potential of this type of movement (while Beethoven's and Schubert's 9th already achieved this) before Mahler.
I like the one in Brahms' 1st a lot, but I am missing a full scale scherzo. The closest (not that stormy but a very good piece, I think) is the first one in the first serenade and of course the 2nd pc.

[LKB]

Here's Mr. Zimerman with Rattle and the BPO from 2015, performing the first piano concerto.

https://youtu.be/y1sfVL5Pw0A

I've not watched all of it, just a few spots in the first and last movements. Very good stuff on the piano, some unevenness in the orchestra, and a timpanist who either a) was under the influence or b) really didn't want to be there. ( As of 6/24/22, the video is now privatized. )

[Symphonic Addict]

Earlier I was giving the Piano Quintet a listen from this splendid CD. I'm not that receptive to this composition (i.e. the first two movements), but the performance is so good that could open my ears with relative ease.

A most impressive recording overall.

[kyjo]

Earlier I was giving the Piano Quintet a listen from this splendid CD. I'm not that receptive to this composition (i.e. the first two movements), but the performance is so good that could open my ears with relative ease.

A most impressive recording overall.

Oh yes, the Pavel Haas Quartet can do no wrong in my book and that new recording is a stunner. I like my Brahms to be more "fiery" than "autumnal" and these performances accomplish exactly that! Regarding the Piano Quintet, I'm not overly fond of the slow movement (I find it a bit emotionally detached?), but the rest of the work is a smoking masterpiece. As I've said before, the scherzo is my absolute favorite movement in all of Brahms, bar none.

[Jo498]

The slow movement seems a bit "light" but there is a certain tradition to have a comparably simple slow movement in intense and dense minor mode works, e.g. Haydn's "Fifths" quartet, Beethoven's 5th symphony, also c minor piano trio. This might be one reason why Brahms put an almost serenade-style slow movement into the piano quintet.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

As I've said before, the scherzo is my absolute favorite movement in all of Brahms, bar none.

Hey, mine too!

And the quintet as a whole was a key work for getting me into chamber music, back when I decided to start exploring it. I still think it ranks at or near the top of Brahms' chamber works.

[kyjo]

The slow movement seems a bit "light" but there is a certain tradition to have a comparably simple slow movement in intense and dense minor mode works, e.g. Haydn's "Fifths" quartet, Beethoven's 5th symphony, also c minor piano trio. This might be one reason why Brahms put an almost serenade-style slow movement into the piano quintet.

That's a good point!

[Symphonic Addict]

Oh yes, the Pavel Haas Quartet can do no wrong in my book and that new recording is a stunner. I like my Brahms to be more "fiery" than "autumnal" and these performances accomplish exactly that! Regarding the Piano Quintet, I'm not overly fond of the slow movement (I find it a bit emotionally detached?), but the rest of the work is a smoking masterpiece. As I've said before, the scherzo is my absolute favorite movement in all of Brahms, bar none.

Another stupendous Brahms Scherzo is the one of his Piano Trio No. 1. It seems it was a specialty of this composer.

[Jo498]

Another stupendous Brahms Scherzo is the one of his Piano Trio No. 1. It seems it was a specialty of this composer.

Except in orchestral music where he avoided "real" scherzi in all symphonies...

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I like my Brahms to be more "fiery" than "autumnal"

Speaking of "autumnal Brahms," here's a poem by Wallace Stevens where Brahms makes an appearance. It's about decline, decay, and death, so I suppose this is Brahms at his most autumnal.

Anglais Mort à Florence

A little less returned for him each spring.
Music began to fail him. Brahms, although
His dark familiar, often walked apart.

His spirit grew uncertain of delight,
Certain of its uncertainty, in which
That dark companion left him unconsoled

For a self returning mostly memory.
Only last year he said that the naked moon
Was not the moon he used to see, to feel

(In the pale coherences of moon and mood
When he was young), naked and alien,
More leanly shining from a lankier sky.

Its ruddy pallor had grown cadaverous.
He used his reason, exercised his will,
Turning in time to Brahms as alternate

In speech. He was that music and himself.
They were particles of order, a single majesty:
But he remembered the time when he stood alone.

He stood at last by God's help and the police;
But he remembered the time when he stood alone.
He yielded himself to that single majesty;

But he remembered the time when he stood alone,
When to be and delight to be seemed to be one,
Before the colors deepened and grew small.

(Wallace Stevens)

[Florestan]

Another stupendous Brahms Scherzo is the one of his Piano Trio No. 1.

My favorite Brahms movement bar none. The trio in particular is to die for.

[kyjo]

Another stupendous Brahms Scherzo is the one of his Piano Trio No. 1. It seems it was a specialty of this composer.

+1 As Andrei mentioned, the waltz-like trio section, in particular, is just glorious. I also love the magical, fade-out coda of the movement. His Piano Trio no. 2 also boasts a superb scherzo with rather "spooky" outer sections and a gorgeous, expansive trio section.

[Jo498]

This movement was also almost exactly the same already in the earlier 1854 version (maybe the coda was changed/added?), AFAIK whereas the first movement, slow movement and finale were all considerably longer, often containing whole episodes that were cut in the later 1880s version.

[Madiel]

Makes sense. A scherzo (or menuet) and trio is a fairly set shape and not discursive (except when Beethoven decided he needed to go around more than once).

[Spotted Horses]

I was reminded of this music and listened to the Piano Trio No 1, Beaux Arts Trio (usually I listen to the Florestan Trio on Hyperion). So much beautiful music, and the scherzo is indeed a highlight, although I think the main melody and its harmonization by violin and cello in the first movement is one of the high points of Brahms melodic invention.

Any favorite recordings of these works? I have Beaux Arts Trio, Florestan Trio, Katchen/Suk/Starker (I don't think I've ever listened to the last one). There doesn't seem to be a huge proliferation of recordings. I tempted to try Tetslaff/Vogt or Capuçon/Angelich.

[Jo498]

It's very hard to ruin that piece, I think. I have heard around 10 and I don't think I disliked any of them.

If you haven't heard the 1854 version, try it out. It's a bit sprawling but interesting, being Brahms's first published full scale chamber work (discounting the f-a-e-Scherzo and possible unpublished early works/versions)
There have been several recordings, the earliest, I think, the Odeon Trion in the late 1970s.

[Mandryka]

My favorite Brahms movement bar none. The trio in particular is to die for.

Be sure to hear Pauk, Frankl and Kirschbaum. Just modest and agreeable playing as always from these people.

[Florestan]

Be sure to hear Pauk, Frankl and Kirschbaum. Just modest and agreeable playing as always from these people.

Thanks for the tip.

[The new erato]

I was reminded of this music and listened to the Piano Trio No 1,

Any favorite recordings of these works? I have Beaux Arts Trio, Florestan Trio, Katchen/Suk/Starker (I don't think I've ever listened to the last one).

You should. IMO it is superb.

[Jo498]

In fact the two recordings of op.8 I probably should revisit as I didn't care so much for them are the historic Rubinstein/Heifetz/Feuermann (for some reason I found this less convincing than their Beethoven and Schubert) and the Fischer/Schneiderhan/Mainardi.
In both cases it might also be the case that the historic sound gets more in the way for my enjoyment as in some other music.