Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[Scion7]

These numbers about destroyed pieces (I have also read about 20 quartets before the published 1st) should be taken with a grain of salt ...

No. The biographies are full of testimonies about the reams of paper that went into his fireplace. Now is "twenty" the true number? Perhaps not, but it is possible and I wouldn't question a dozen at all. He was a perfectionist and sometimes had self-doubt.

[Jo498]

We don't know if these were merely sketches or almost completed works. Or situations like the piano quintet that went through different stages until eventually becoming both a 2 piano sonata and a piano quintet and all the earlier (cello quintet or whatnot) were destroyed.
AFAIK the trio I mentioned above is about the only mature piece where we can be reasonably sure.
Many of the supposed 20 quartets would have been earlyish and probably never completed.

[Madiel]

Nevertheless, the lack of sketches or other versions or unfinished works, compared to other composers, is notable.

[Opus131]

Some people are still mad at Brahms for being "mean" Hans Rott or speaking derogatively about Bruckner

What's funny is that he stopped abusing Bruckner once he met him in person (but not Wagner heh).

I think Brahms had kind of a combative personality and relished getting into those verbal spats and assumed his opponents did too. When he saw how sensitive a person Bruckner was and how different he was from Wagner he relented as he didn't actually intend to personally injure anyone. It was just fun and games to him.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I think Brahms had kind of a combative personality and relished getting into those verbal spats and assumed his opponents did too. When he saw how sensitive a person Bruckner was and how different he was from Wagner he relented as he didn't actually intend to personally injure anyone. It was just fun and games to him.

Brahms is often described as a curmudgeon or a misanthrope who liked to insult people and say outrageous things about them. However, he wasn't some morose loner; he had a lively social life and a lot of devoted friends, which suggests that this reputation is exaggerated.

[Jo498]

As a young man Brahms was dragged into the "war" between the Neudeutschen and the more conservative Schumannians, maybe a bit against his will. From his early piano sonatas one could imagine him developing more into a middle way between Schumann & Liszt I think (although he supposedly fell asleep at a Liszt recital).
Brahms had very cordial (and sometimes also difficult relationships) with many friends, so in general he wasn't a curmudgeon. But he could be quite scathing to those he perceived as enemies or annoying (and apparently didn't hold back with musical judgements).

[Florestan]

he supposedly fell asleep at a Liszt recital

AFAIK, Brahms went to that recital immediately after a long and exhausting journey, so that might account for the fact.

[Scion7]

Brahms is often described as a curmudgeon or a misanthrope who liked to insult people and say outrageous things about them. However, he wasn't some morose loner; he had a lively social life and a lot of devoted friends, which suggests that this reputation is exaggerated.

Read more about Brahms. He was tormented, and though he often was harsh and without good manners, he could be an (often anonymous) benefactor - but his 'great renunciation' led to a cankering problem in his personality, and his association with prostitutes as a child playing piano in Hamburg sea-dives had very long-lasting effects.

[lordlance]

Read more about Brahms. He was tormented, and though he often was harsh and without good manners, he could be an (often anonymous) benefactor - but his 'great renunciation' led to a cankering problem in his personality, and his association with prostitutes as a child playing piano in Hamburg sea-dives had very long-lasting effects.

What is the "great renunciation"?

Also Brahms frequented brothels as a child?! 

[Jo498]

According to wikipedia (referring to Swafford's biography) it's probably a legend that Brahms played piano in seedy brothels as a child. This would not only have been frowned upon but literally against the law in 19th century Hamburg. His family was also not that poor (by the time Brahms was growing up). But apparently Brahms himself later said that he had a poor opinion of women in general because among the first women he encountered had been prostitutes. Not sure how well this remark is attested and it might have been a later rationalization of Brahms'.

[Scion7]

That book (the woman that made the claim) has been soundly criticized. BRAHMS OWN WORDS should always take precedence, and "being against the law" - seriously??  There were many things then and now that are illegal, and go on all the time.

[Florestan]

BRAHMS OWN WORDS should always take precedence

Well, he stated that he'd have given anything in return for being able to write "An der schoenen blauen Donau". Do you believe him?

[Jo498]

Who reported "Brahms own words"? And did he say that he played in brothels as a child or rather only that he got a bad impression of women early on because of prostitutes? He could have gotten that impression a) without playing in pubs/brothels (e.g. streetwalkers in some areas) b) not as a child but a young man.
Of course, laws are not necessarily followed. But why would the not desperately poor but closer to petit bourgeois family of Brahms risk falling foul of laws by making a boy play in a seedy pub?

[Opus131]

His life long love for Clara Schumann (he weeped at her funeral and she was the first to play his late piano miniatures we can safely say his affection for her never relented) is something that needs to be accounted for i think.

Swafford recounts situations where young women would spontaneously rally around him to sing songs with him every time he was at the piano. That he didn't pursue any seems remarkable but rather than him having a "low" opinion of women in general i think it's more that he had a low opinion of human sexuality. I got the sense the reason he relied on prostitutes to satisfy his physical needs is that he couldn't harmonize the ideal with the sexual act, and wished to keep the two separate.

Medieval romance or courtly love was often platonic i think something like this was going with Brahms. He had an ideal image of feminity he didn't want to ruin it by mixing sexuality into it, so for his physical needs he relied on those women who already fell short of the ideal to begin with, namely prostitutes.

[Florestan]

Who reported "Brahms own words"? And did he say that he played in brothels as a child or rather only that he got a bad impression of women early on because of prostitutes? He could have gotten that impression a) without playing in pubs/brothels (e.g. streetwalkers in some areas) b) not as a child but a young man.
Of course, laws are not necessarily followed. But why would the not desperately poor but closer to petit bourgeois family of Brahms risk falling foul of laws by making a boy play in a seedy pub?

Besides, Brahms in his adult years was an intensely private man, anxious to conceal, or even erase, any track leading towards his personal life and feelings. Everything he said, or is reported to have said, in this respect should be taken cum grano salis.

[Madiel]

Besides, Brahms in his adult years was an intensely private man, anxious to conceal, or even erase, any track leading towards his personal life and feelings. Everything he said, or is reported to have said, in this respect should be taken cum grano salis.

I was going to say "people lie", but your version is good.

[Jo498]

Brahms had at least 1 (maybe more) fiancées/love interests (Agathe who gets encoded as a-g-a-b-e in some sextet, IIRC) as a younger man but his feelings for Clara (or his general character) led to the failing of these relationships.

He was also on good terms with wives of his friends (or better, these women were also his friends) like Elisabeth von Herzogenberg and fell out with Joachim because he had sided with Joachim's wife Amalie when they separated (the Double concerto was a gesture of reconciliation with the violinist). And he supposedly also visited prostitutes in Vienna. Nothing of this proves that his parents let him play in seedy establishments as a boy. I don't have any better sources than wikipedia quoting Swafford (but this is a highly regarded biography, not some niche source)

[Florestan]

he supposedly also visited prostitutes in Vienna

Which in itself proves nothing at all. So did tens of thousands of his contemporaries. 

[Maestro267]

Listening to one of my favourite chamber works, the Horn Trio. Amazing combination of timbres with the piano, violin and horn. The slow movement is one of Brahms' darkest.

[Brian]

Listening to one of my favourite chamber works, the Horn Trio. Amazing combination of timbres with the piano, violin and horn. The slow movement is one of Brahms' darkest.

I once got to interview a violinist who had recorded this piece (Alexander Kerr; on Naxos) and he said that the challenges of conveying a correct balance between instruments in the recording studio were beyond all his expectations. If he played as he would do in a concert performance of the piece, the violin sounded comparatively huge and up-close compared to the horn's more diffuse sound. He told me he basically had to learn the instrument from scratch, relearning how loudly and softly to play, and in moments when the horn also plays he was playing as quietly as possible, no more than tickling the strings, because the microphones exaggerated his presence so much.