Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[karlhenning]

Fine post, Mark.

[JoshLilly]

Alyabyev - Never heard anything by him but his name, and had to look up the name to get a spelling.

Berezovsky - born in Russia, though today his birthplace is in Ukraine, which is why he's sometimes listed as a Ukrainian composer. He composed operas and the earliest-dated (so far) Russian symphony. Probably the most internationally noted native-born Russian composer prior to Glinka, his operas got playtime around Europe. He died in 1777, so definitely predates Glinka.

Dmitri Bortnyansky was born in the same town and had almost the same exact lifespan as Salieri. I have a CD of some of his church music, which is for human voices only.

These are three off the top of my head; the first I couldn't remember his name, but remembered somewhat what it looked like. Check Wikipedia and you can swiftly find others born prior to Glinka.

[karlhenning]

The only I could think of was Bortnyansky;  and since most of his output was sacred choral music, he was unlikely to have written a tone-poem in advance of Glinka.  I think we're underscoring the doubtful nature of "a lot of," Josh.

You haven't shown me any reason behind your sharp skepticism that Glinka wrote the first Russian tone-poem.  And no, I'm not going to go to Wikipedia to do your work for you 

[BachQ]

The only I could think of was Bortnyansky;  and since most of his output was sacred choral music, he was unlikely to have written a tone-poem in advance of Glinka.  I think we're underscoring the doubtful nature of "a lot of," Josh.

You haven't shown me any reason behind your sharp skepticism that Glinka wrote the first Russian tone-poem.  And no, I'm not going to go to Wikipedia to do your work for you 

Speaking as a composer, one of my niche areas is composing sacred choral tone poems ......... Of course, it remains my fondest hope that the market for this niche will someday catch on .........

[paulb]

Brahms, Mendelssohn, Schumann etc were conservative Romantics that favoured in keeping classical traditions in form and structure. They wrote absolute music that does not have a set background or story to it, as opposed to the progressive Romantics like Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Liszt etc who favoured in experimenting with more advanced techniques such as dissonant or even atonal harmonies, extreme chromaticism, and large scale works. The latter bunch wrote a lot of programmatic music that has a setting behind it (such as Liszt's invention, the symphonic poems).

very good post.
i missed your comment and so started a topic dealing with this highly interesting, provocative subject, that may havea   dark side to it. As my question was a  railraoad to the OP. Look forward to your continue views on the subject over there.
Paul

[JoshLilly]

You haven't shown me any reason behind your sharp skepticism that Glinka wrote the first Russian tone-poem.  And no, I'm not going to go to Wikipedia to do your work for you 

It's not sharp skepticism, I just said it was "fairly" unlikely. He may very well have been.
And I suppose if you doubt there were "a lot" of Russian composers before Glinka, we'd have to decide how we define "a lot". I bet, given enough time and the proper sources, we could build a list exceeding 100 names of composers born in Russia before Glinka. Anybody here live in Russia, or in a country that was part of Russia in those times?

[karlhenning]

It's not sharp skepticism, I just said it was "fairly" unlikely. He may very well have been.

Well, you also wrote that you would be "very surprised."

And I suppose if you doubt there were "a lot" of Russian composers before Glinka, we'd have to decide how we define "a lot." I bet, given enough time and the proper sources, we could build a list exceeding 100 names of composers born in Russia before Glinka. Anybody here live in Russia, or in a country that was part of Russia in those times?

a) You won't find many Russian composers before the founding of St Petersburg.  For one thing, the Russian Orthodox Church has long favored traditional chant, and rarely has encouraged new sacred music.  For another, before Peter the Great, there did not exist much of any milieu for court music.

b) Define a lot however you like;  the immediate context, though, is the question of anyone pre-empting Glinka in the matter of the first Russian tone-poem.  You don't have Western-style orchestras in Russia before Peter the Great.  Finding the name of a 14-century gusli player in Arkhangelsk isn't going to be especially germane.

c) Offhand, the notion of a list of 100 Russian composers before Glinka strikes me as playing more with the definition of composer than of a lot 

BTW, this is a well-written general history:



(We should probably give the thread back to Brahms, of course.)

[Bonehelm]

very good post.
i missed your comment and so started a topic dealing with this highly interesting, provocative subject, that may havea   dark side to it. As my question was a  railraoad to the OP. Look forward to your continue views on the subject over there.
Paul

Thanks. I don't know nearly as much as some scholars on here, but I'll do what I can if anyone asks something I do know. 

[JoshLilly]

Great post, karlhenning! Thanks for that info, I really never thought of those first two points before, and I'll take your Point C as being probably fairly spot-on. For example, some of the Russian nobles dabbled in composing on a small, or tiny, scale. Are they counted as composers? Maybe you're right, and they shouldn't be. You're also right on the last: back to Brahms!

[lukeottevanger]

And just as a minor point to set beside Karl's well-put posts, Kamarinskaya is generally recognised as the first Russian Symphonic Poem, a fact one reads time and time again in the literature.

moving on...

Neatly packaging Brahms off as a 'conservative Romantic' 'versus' the 'progressive Romanticism' of Wagner & Co. is only accurate if one takes an exceedingly global view of things. Such views are almost always misleading, and if one follows them one misses the details, which is where the beauty of music resides. Brahms may have written abstract music in 'conventional' forms and to a standard scale, he may not have placed Tristan-type chords in prominent places in his scores, but in matters of motivic development, formal details etc. etc. - matters of delicate brush-work compared to Wagner's broad brush, both being equally important - he was as progressive as they come. Which is why Schoenberg said that he took from Brahms and Wagner in equal amounts - and why, as he grew older and his music more advanced and iconoclastic, the Wagner influence (most evident in Gurrelieder, Verklarte Nacht, op 16, Erwartung etc) grew less and less important, and the Brahms one (in the Variations, the Concerti etc. etc.) more prominent than that of any other composer.

[BachQ]

"This is a splendid Brahms disc [of Sym #1] [and] I can easily imagine this version becoming a favorite. *** It all culminates in a really brilliant finale: the closing pages have a positively physical lift."  --DH

[karlhenning]

Brahms may have written abstract music in 'conventional' forms and to a standard scale, he may not have placed Tristan-type chords in prominent places in his scores, but in matters of motivic development, formal details etc. etc. - matters of delicate brush-work compared to Wagner's broad brush, both being equally important - he was as progressive as they come. Which is why Schoenberg said that he took from Brahms and Wagner in equal amounts - and why, as he grew older and his music more advanced and iconoclastic, the Wagner influence (most evident in Gurrelieder, Verklarte Nacht, op 16, Erwartung etc) grew less and less important, and the Brahms one (in the Variations, the Concerti etc. etc.) more prominent than that of any other composer.

See how Wagner wanes, and how Brahms waxeth . . . .

[JoshLilly]

You also read "facts" in the literature like Beethoven writing the first symphony to use trombones (there's at least one earlier, by Eggert), or that Saint-Saëns wrote the first French piano concerto (Boïeldieu wrote one and died before Saint-Saëns was born), or Wagner wrote the first unbroken opera or "music drama" (did someone go back in a time machine and stop Salieri from composing Tarare?), or... well, you get the point. So yes, I do question these things, and think everyone ought to. There's a lot more to discover than you can find in the average book, which covers only the most famous.

[johnQpublic]

I just looked up the definition of "profound" in my dictionary and instead of words it merely had a portrait of Brahms!!!

[BachQ]

or that Saint-Saëns wrote the first French piano concerto (Boïeldieu wrote one and died before Saint-Saëns was born),

LOL ..... I fell for that and posted as much in the Saint-Saens thread .........



((But, at the same time, it could actually be true that Kamarinskaya is the first Russian symphonic poem ........))

[lukeottevanger]

((But, at the same time, it could actually be true that Kamarinskaya is the first Russian symphonic poem ........))

Barring evidence to the contrary, I still have no reason to think that it isn't.... ('the oak from which Russian music grew', as Tchaikovsky said of it)

[(poco) Sforzando]

You also read "facts" in the literature like Beethoven writing the first symphony to use trombones (there's at least one earlier, by Eggert)

Possibly, possibly not. The Eggert 3rd was written in 1807, and LvB 5 was premiered in 1808. But Beethoven was working on that symphony for several years previous, with the first sketches appearing in 1804 and much of the work done between 1807-08. Exactly when he hit on the idea of adding trombones (as well as a contrabassoon and piccolo) to his finale is something I don't know. But it's highly unlikely he would have known of Eggert working in Sweden. More probably the two composers happened on the same idea independently, and the works were written so closely in time as to make the idea of one being "first" moot.

"By the way, Eggert used trombones in a couple of symphonies around the time of Beethoven's Fifth. I am not sure his use of the instruments predates that of Beethoven, but it must be fairly close."
- http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/articles/kallai.php

or Wagner wrote the first unbroken opera or "music drama" (did someone go back in a time machine and stop Salieri from composing Tarare?), or... well, you get the point.

Well, I'm not sure I do. Are you implying that Wagner's practices were anticipated by Salieri, or that he took ideas from Salieri? I certainly have never read of any comments by Wagner on Salieri, who on the other hand was quite forthright about his admiration for and indebtedness to Gluck, Mozart, and Beethoven. More likely Wagner arrived at his theories and practice independently (which doesn't mean Salieri wasn't "first" in writing a through-composed opera, he may well have been; on the other hand there's much more to Wagner's methods than "unending melody" - the use of Leitmotivs for one major example).

So yes, I do question these things, and think everyone ought to.

Certainly true.

[BachQ]

"So many marvelous details transpire over the course of the performances that it is difficult to know where to begin."





1.  Trio for Piano and Strings no 1 in B major, Op. 8 by Johannes Brahms, Wanderer Trio

2.  Trio for Piano and Strings no 2 in C major, Op. 87 by Johannes Brahms, Wanderer Trio

3.  Trio for Piano and Strings no 3 in C minor, Op. 101 by Johannes Brahms, Wanderer Trio

4.  Quartet for Piano and Strings no 1 in G minor, Op. 25 by Johannes Brahms, Christophe Gaugué (Viola)
Wanderer Trio

[BachQ]

Review: Jurowski / Hough Brahms Piano Concerto no. 1 in D Minor + Schubert's Unfinished
Joshua Kosman, Chronicle Music Critic

Friday, February 15, 2008



Word on the rialto is that Vladimir Jurowski, who led the touring Russian National Orchestra in music of Schubert and Brahms Thursday night, is poised to become the next conducting superstar. The idea seems plausible, but an observer might want better evidence than the undercooked performance offered in Davies Symphony Hall as part of the San Francisco Symphony's Great Performers Series.

At 35, Jurowski - a Muscovite in London who holds posts with the London Philharmonic Orchestra and the Glyndebourne Festival - has many of the external trappings of the imposing maestro. He's tall, lanky and beetle-browed, with a sweep of dark Paganiniesque hair and a stage demeanor that is both imperious and sensitive, and he conducts with a persuasive combination of sweep and precisely etched detail.

Still, Thursday's program - which featured a fascinating new completion of Schubert's "Unfinished" Symphony and Stephen Hough as soloist in Brahms' First Piano Concerto - never yielded the kind of artistic excitement or depth that a great conductor should provide.

The orchestra sounded timorous and underpowered in the Schubert, and often raw and slovenly in the Brahms. Jurowski, who was appointed principal guest conductor in 2005, elicited warm, sumptuous playing from the strings while allowing the woodwinds to fade weakly into the background and the percussion to jump in with disruptive explosions.

What Jurowski does boast is taut rhythmic control, which allowed him to pace fast sections - particularly the opening of the Schubert and parts of the first movement of the Brahms - with a fleetness that was welcome and even revelatory. The light airiness of the Schubert, though frustrating when the music cried out for more of an impact, nonetheless made the famous second theme into something brisk and unfussy.

But when Jurowski turned up the intensity for the Brahms, the result wasn't much more successful. The orchestra flailed away with a surprising lack of discipline, and Hough - clad in ruby slippers that were either a tribute to Valentine's Day or a grim suggestion that a house was about to fall on him - pounded his way through the solo part with a surprising lack of subtlety.

The most interesting part of the program was the Schubert completion, done in 2005 by Russian composer Anton Safronov and given its U.S. premiere Thursday.

In addition to the two movements that Schubert finished, Safronov put together a scherzo based on incomplete sketches and manufactured a finale out of whole cloth. The result is a hugely impressive piece of musical mimicry, fake Schubert that's easily good enough to fool a listener at 50 yards.

The most unusual part is the bony, slightly off-kilter main theme of the scherzo - and that, wouldn't you know it, is Schubert's own. Safronov's treatment is impeccable, and the finale - a fast triplet-ridden romp along the lines of the finales of the "Great" C-Major Symphony and the "Death and the Maiden" Quartet - is a keeper.

[BachQ]

Equal Parts Head & Heart
Classical Music
BY JAY NORDLINGER
February 25, 2008
URL: http://www.nysun.com/article/71788



The Russian National Orchestra is not very old, established only in 1990, in the last days of the Soviet Union. But it has long seemed part of the furniture. The RNO came to Avery Fisher Hall for two concerts over the weekend. It was conducted by Vladimir Jurowski, the young, dynamic maestro with the fabulous long hair — "conductor's hair."

On Saturday night, the menu was Schubert and Brahms — beginning with the Symphony No. 8 in B minor by Schubert. This is the symphony in two movements, the "Unfinished," as you know.

From Mr. Jurowski and the RNO, it started ominous and dark — very dark. The traditional Russian darkness served the opening measures very well. When the music really got going, Mr. Jurowski chose a very, very fast tempo. Given this tempo, it seemed that some of the mystery would be taken out of the symphony. The first movement is marked "Allegro moderato"; "moderato" seemed nowhere to be found.

But a funny thing happened, as the symphony continued. The ear adjusted; Mr. Jurowski's tempo seemed almost normal.

In the main, he exhibited good taste, judging the pauses decently, for example. Critical parts of the first movement were very, very moving. And we were reminded what a great work this is.

Occasionally, the orchestra sounded tight and dry. But, overall, it satisfied. Some of the onsets were shaky, and some of the chords were not together. But the unison playing of the strings tended to be extraordinarily smooth. And the brass were fairly poised and accurate.

As for the second movement, Mr. Jurowski was again on the fast side, but sensible. His dynamics were acute — sometimes startling — but not un-Schubertian. He kept things interesting, in a movement that careless hands can make monotonous. In their solos, the woodwinds were adequate. But the orchestra was best when playing as one, and in full cry.

The conductor launched right into the third movement, allowing hardly any break. What, the third movement? Yes: Mr. Jurowski was conducting a "completion" by Anton Safronov, a Russian composer in his 30s. Schubert left a piano outline of a third movement; so Mr. Safronov imagined how that would have come out. And he went ahead and composed a fourth movement — though borrowing from music of Schubert that we actually have. (A piece for piano four hands; an unfinished piano sonata.)

That third movement was bumptious, exuberant, and plausibly Schubertian. And the RNO's horns did admirable work. The last movement proved interesting and earnest — intelligently crafted, generally in line with Schubert's spirit. We heard neat little allusions to the opening movement. Mr. Safronov has performed more an act of devotion than an act of ego or hubris.

But I, personally, must question such exercises. To me, the two additional movements seem superfluous. They also make the symphony unnaturally long, in my judgment. It felt like a week in B minor. Schumann famously said that Schubert's Symphony No. 9 had "heavenly length." I'm not sure that the length of the Schubert/Safronov Eighth is so heavenly.

Herewith a rule: Unless you're a genius, leave such uncompleted works as Schubert's Eighth and Mahler's Tenth alone. And if you do happen to be a genius — spend your time on your own stuff!

After intermission, we had Brahms's Piano Concerto No. 1 in D minor, in which the soloist was Stephen Hough. He has long been underrated, or at least underfamous: He has no PR machine behind him (apparently). And he seems the type who would not want one. He is a pure, honest musician, and one of the best pianists in the world.

He is the kind of pianist — very rare — who contains all pianists. He is a thunderous and dazzling virtuoso; and he is a poet, a miniaturist. He is both a Liszt player and a Mozart player — utterly appropriate in both. He has Horowitz in him, and also Myra Hess. (Actually, those two pianists contained all elements too.) Mr. Hough, in brief, is a complete pianist. He does not have much company. Among living pianists, there is Yefim Bronfman, and a handful of others.

In the Brahms's D-minor, Mr. Hough called on his completeness: He was titanic and angelic, as the music required. In almost every note and phrase he played, there was judgment. The second movement had all the spirituality imbedded in it. And Mr. Jurowski and the Russian National Orchestra made excellent, committed partners in Brahms. They used head and heart in the right doses. You could issue some complaints, of course — sometimes Mr. Hough sounded a little brittle. (And then there were the bright red shoes.) But, in perspective, any complaints would be trivial. This was a first-class performance of a great concerto. The audience got its money's worth, and then some.






Pianist Hough masters Brahms D Minor Piano Concerto
POETIC PERFORMANCE THRIVES DESPITE UNEVEN BACKING OF RUSSIAN ORCHESTRA
By Richard Scheinin
Mercury News
Article Launched: 02/16/2008 01:34:53 AM PST


Stephen Hough is a one-of-a-kind musician, so spectacularly good that you leave one of his performances thinking, "I wish I could hear this man play the piano every day." Thursday at Davies Symphony Hall, Hough's performance of Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 1 in D minor qualified as a most lucid poetic commentary on one of the most poetic pieces of music ever composed.

Often, his tone was translucent, suffused with mystery. Always, he played with absolute clarity and control, focusing energy in and through each note. At times, he played with a predatory power, carrying the entire Russian National Orchestra on his back. It was a transfixing performance by a pianist who towers over many of the better-known soloists on the circuit.

Utterly in command and at ease, Hough even wore a pair of shiny red slippers, in Technicolor contrast to the all-black attire of every other musician on stage. He defined the performance.

The concert, part of the Great Performers Series presented by the San Francisco Symphony, found the Russian National Orchestra under the baton of Vladimir Jurowski, its principal guest conductor. He is young and stylish, with a gleaming mane. Thursday, he excelled at coaxing delicate muted textures from his players, who, nonetheless, didn't seem at their best. It's a good thing there are so many muted passages throughout the concerto.