Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[DavidW]

The comments about audience noise are nonsense! I've listened to this set over headphones and speakers and was not aware of a SINGLE "noises off" - and I am quite picky about this.  Also, what is remarkable is that is NO WAY does this sound like small-scale Brahms.  Yes tempi are swift - sometimes surprisingly slow but to dismiss it out of hand is simply because of familiarity not because there is anything systemically "wrong" here.  You could easily counter the argument by saing Dausgaard is truer to the "con brio" marking than any Klemperer etc.........!!  The Hurwitz reviews on Classics Today are his usual invective - I simply do not recognise the performances he describes.  To say Dausgaard's arrangement of the Hungarian Dances are amateurish is perplexing.  Hurwitz gets a bee in his bonnet about certain repertoire/performers/critics etc etc and then he only seeks to reinforce that opinion with his own reviews thereby creating a body of reviews which are negative or - in the case of Leonard Slatkin - almost universally positive.  As ever the truth lies somewhere between.  These Brahms performances are certainly worth a listen.  They might not be your cup of tea but to suggest they are musically poor/inept/amateurish is ignorant and rude.  But that if often what Hurwitz does best............

What you're saying doesn't surprise me.  Dausgaard's Schumann cycle is imho just the best out there.  And I recently heard his Bruckner 3rd and it was revelatory.  I will be listening to this Brahms cycle.

[foxandpeng]

What you're saying doesn't surprise me.  Dausgaard's Schumann cycle is imho just the best out there.  And I recently heard his Bruckner 3rd and it was revelatory.  I will be listening to this Brahms cycle.

I won't pretend that Brahms and Schumann are composers I often play, but I don't think I have heard a Dausgaard that I didn't like.

[staxomega]

The comments about audience noise are nonsense! I've listened to this set over headphones and speakers and was not aware of a SINGLE "noises off" - and I am quite picky about this.  Also, what is remarkable is that is NO WAY does this sound like small-scale Brahms.  Yes tempi are swift - sometimes surprisingly so but to dismiss it out of hand is simply because of familiarity not because there is anything systemically "wrong" here.  You could easily counter the argument by saying Dausgaard is truer to the "con brio" marking than any Klemperer etc.........!!  The Hurwitz reviews on Classics Today are his usual invective - I simply do not recognise the performances he describes.  To say Dausgaard's arrangement of the Hungarian Dances are amateurish is perplexing.  Hurwitz gets a bee in his bonnet about certain repertoire/performers/critics etc etc and then he only seeks to reinforce that opinion with his own reviews thereby creating a body of reviews which are negative or - in the case of Leonard Slatkin - almost universally positive.  As ever the truth lies somewhere between.  These Brahms performances are certainly worth a listen.  They might not be your cup of tea but to suggest they are musically poor/inept/amateurish is ignorant and rude.  But that if often what Hurwitz does best............

I was listening to Mengelberg in Mahler's 4 earlier today (a personal favorite), Hurwitz's long rant about it had me enjoying it even more And can I also say that bee in your bonnet is one of my favorite English expressions, I continue to use this with my American friends.

[Herman]

But 75% of the time the man is full of hot air - 'orrible critic - not really a go-to sort of support for opinions, good or bad.

Make that 90% of the time, in which he's mostly just reading aloud what's in some mega cd box.

[Herman]

I noticed a comment about listening to Leister's 115 as the go to, and I'd say it's time to get another clarinet soloist.

Leister is really old hat, with his emphasis on melancholy autumn moods.

[Jo498]

I noticed a comment about listening to Leister's 115 as the go to, and I'd say it's time to get another clarinet soloist.

Leister is really old hat, with his emphasis on melancholy autumn moods.

Trying to out-Hurwitz Hurwitz with tired tropes?

There is nothing specially "autumnal" about Leister's playing. I have two Leister recordings and about four others and, guess what, the piece is pretty much the same in all of them. No interpretation is provoking titles like "spring quintet" or "cheerful gathering of peasants" for that piece

But Leister was a superb clarinetist and decades-long principal of one of the world's best orchestra, so to avoid his recordings of that piece is a bit like going out of one's way to avoid Karajan's Brahms recordings, only because they are a few decades old and have been so often recommended. Or because of their "German sound", or some other nonsense.

[SonicMan46]

Thanks amw for your further comments!     Yeh, Hurwitz can be a 'wind bag' but this time he supports the two in my Brahms collection that I also enjoy - but WOW, 20 cycles!  I've not made a decision yet on replacing Janowski, but 3 cycles will serve my needs - Dave

BIS have recently repackaged the Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra 4 discs as a "4 discs for 2" bargain.  I have enjoyed these a lot.  Yes tempi are often fleet but this does NOT sound like "Chamber Brahms".  Ensemble is superb - these are brilliantly played dynamic performances.  Quite similar to Mackerras - there the Telarc recording is a bit more in your face.  The Dausgaard benefits from extensive/interesting fillers including Dausgaard's own arrangements of the Hungarian Dances.  Not works I listen to that often but quite scintillating here.......

The comments about audience noise are nonsense! I've listened to this set over headphones and speakers and was not aware of a SINGLE "noises off" - and I am quite picky about this.  Also, what is remarkable is that is NO WAY does this sound like small-scale Brahms.  Yes tempi are swift - sometimes surprisingly so but to dismiss it out of hand is simply because of familiarity not because there is anything systemically "wrong" here.  You could easily counter the argument by saying Dausgaard is truer to the "con brio" marking than any Klemperer etc.........!!  The Hurwitz reviews on Classics Today are his usual invective - I simply do not recognise the performances he describes.  To say Dausgaard's arrangement of the Hungarian Dances are amateurish is perplexing.  Hurwitz gets a bee in his bonnet about certain repertoire/performers/critics etc etc and then he only seeks to reinforce that opinion with his own reviews thereby creating a body of reviews which are negative or - in the case of Leonard Slatkin - almost universally positive.  As ever the truth lies somewhere between.  These Brahms performances are certainly worth a listen.  They might not be your cup of tea but to suggest they are musically poor/inept/amateurish is ignorant and rude.  But that if often what Hurwitz does best............

Thanks ALL for the comments on Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra - listen to two of the symphonies on Spotify and enjoyed - actually I do like smaller orchestras and faster tempos so fit my ears nicely!  Also agree that there is no audience noise - so, just made an order on Amazon USA for about $33 USD - delivery in a few days.  Dave

[Spotted Horses]

My reference recordings are: #1 Jochum (London) and Furtwängler (Berlin 1951), #2 Chailly (Concertgebouw) and Walter (New York), #3 Kertész and Walter (Columbia), #4 Jochum (London and Berlin). That said, these are heterodox choices and I generally consider Kertész the best middle-of-the-road cycle, Mackerras the best of the faster/leaner/etc cycles (with an honourable mention to Norrington LCP), and Kubelík (Bavarian Radio) the best of the slower/denser/larger-band/etc cycles (with an honourable mention to Thielemann, mostly for the Dresden Staatskapelle winds).

Finally I am not alone in my admiration for Kertesz!

[Roasted Swan]

Finally I am not alone in my admiration for Kertesz!

I'm a Kertesz fan too!  But actually I find I like a lot of different Brahms cycles from Levine in Chicago to Skrowaczewski in Manchester and German RSO to all the "Usual suspects"!

[Ras]

Also agree that there is no audience noise

Almost all recordings of classical music released nowadays are live recordings. They are ususally made from more than one performance and even sometimes patched up in the studio. There is rarely any noise from the audience or musicians.

For the Brahms symphonies I would also recommend some older cycles especially Klemperer on EMI, Solti on Decca, Haitink on Decca, John Barbirolli with the Wiener Philharmoniker on EMI/Warner, Eugen Jochum on EMI/Warner and Bruno Walter with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra on Columbia/Sony.

More recent cycles I like:
Barenboim made two good recordings one on Warner and one on DG.
Haitink on LSO Live.
James Levine on RCA.

Herbert Blomstedt has started a new cycle on Pentatone which is good so far. Only heard the first symphony so far.

If you want to be HIP try Gardiner on SDG or MacKerras on Telarc. (Did you say you already have McKerras I forgot...)

I don't know how many of those reocordings are still available on CD, but I think most of them are on Spotify.

[Herman]

Trying to out-Hurwitz Hurwitz with tired tropes?

That would be ironic, because I really can't stand Hurwitz.

It's just that I used to have these Leister recordings (same with the Reger clt quintet) and when I got a younger generation performance I suddenly heard an energy and urgency I had never heard before (with KL).

[Herman]

Trying to out-Hurwitz Hurwitz with tired tropes?

There is nothing specially "autumnal" about Leister's playing. I have two Leister recordings and about four others and, guess what, the piece is pretty much the same in all of them. No interpretation is provoking titles like "spring quintet" or "cheerful gathering of peasants" for that piece

But Leister was a superb clarinetist and decades-long principal of one of the world's best orchestra, so to avoid his recordings of that piece is a bit like going out of one's way to avoid Karajan's Brahms recordings, only because they are a few decades old and have been so often recommended. Or because of their "German sound", or some other nonsense.

Of course Leister is a great clarinetist, even though I am not sure about the notion that the first desk in Berlin automatically makes you better than any other clarinetist in the world.

It's a little strange you have six recordings of op 115 and they are all 'pretty much the same' to you. Yes, it's the same piece, with the same notes, but the way I hear it there has been a clear evolution in Brahms performance the past forty years, away from 'mellow' and 'autumnal' and towards greater urgency and passion.

[staxomega]

That would be ironic, because I really can't stand Hurwitz.

It's just that I used to have these Leister recordings (same with the Reger clt quintet) and when I got a younger generation performance I suddenly heard an energy and urgency I had never heard before (with KL).

What newer recordings do you like in the Brahms Clarinet Quintet? I found myself in complete agreement with you regarding Artemis vs Ebene in the Beethoven SQs so I'm curious. The only Leister recording I have is with Amadeus Quartet, if memory serves me I don't really listen to it anymore because of the Amadeus Quartet. Off the top of my head for modern recordings I have Pacifica/Anthony McGill, Emerson/David Shifrin, and Badke/Maximiliano Martin.

[staxomega]

With the recent mention of Kertesz I decided to do a comparison of my various recordings of the fourth symphony with the VPO. Dragged and dropped the first movement (because if you miss on this, you miss on the symphony) into my player then moved them around so I didn't know what I was listening to.

What came out on top C. Kleiber, then Kertesz with Levine trailing behind, the Levine isn't bad but for me not essential. Aside from my indecipherable notes one thing that stood out was Kleiber being a little over a minute slower than Levine, except it sounded like it was more brisk. So Carlos shall continue to remain one of my favorites in this symphony, the grip from Kleiber and the lights out VPO is something else. Fortunately for all three of them Furtwangler could not be included as the two I have from him are with BPO 

[Herman]

What newer recordings do you like in the Brahms Clarinet Quintet?

Sharon Kam recorded a good one with Jerusalem, although the live version on youtube, appeals to me a little more.

Kam also recorded a great disc with a pick up ensemble consisting of Isabelle van Keulen, Ulrike Anima Mathe on violins, etc, combining the Brahms with a really terrific Max Reger clarinet quintet.

This is the Kam / Jerusalem on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOHYDnSfUOY

[Symphonic Addict]

Brahms's Symphonies are supremely singular and different each other. Today I was revisiting his 3rd with Walter and the Columbia Orchestra. This is exquisite craftsmanship and unique melodies. Distinctively Brahmsian if being more insistent. That performance blew me away, particularly the 2nd mov. The very last part of the work did underwhelm me quite a bit. Karajan is more effective here methinks.

[Mapman]

I streamed that recording last night, and I thought they did a great job with the opening of the final movement. The first loud outburst is inevitable, but still shocking. I enjoy any performance that manages to do that! (And the 2nd movement is great, especially with the great clarinet solos!)

[amw]

I believe that's in my top 2 or 3 Thirds but it's been ages since I checked.

[LKB]

Brahms's Symphonies are supremely singular and different each other. Today I was revisiting his 3rd with Walter and the Columbia Orchestra. This is exquisite craftsmanship and unique melodies. Distinctively Brahmsian if being more insistent. That performance blew me away, particularly the 2nd mov. The very last part of the work did underwhelm me quite a bit. Karajan is more effective here methinks.

If it's the same Walter recording I'm familiar with, I share your pleasure in the second movement. Walter shows some lovely subtlety, and his slight broadening into the coda is perfectly judged. Imho, the second movement alone makes the entire performance worthwhile.

[Florestan]

Brahms's Symphonies are supremely singular and different each other.

I beg to differ. The symphonies are Brahms' weakest output. His chamber and concertante works are far, far, far better. Give me Schumann's symphonies over Brahms' every day and night.