Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

Started by BachQ, April 07, 2007, 03:23:22 AM

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Scion7

    Version History

    Composed for string quintet, 1862 (lost)
    Revised for piano and string quartet, 1864, as the Piano Quintet, Op.34
    Arranged for 2 pianos by Brahms, 1864, as the Sonata for 2 Pianos, Op.34b
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Brahmsian

Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 07, 2023, 09:30:49 AMThe conversation has sort of convinced me I need the Amadeus Quartet versions, since they were the first I heard of this music and I have a sentimental urge to listen to them again (especially since there seems to be a newer master in the more recent release).

Go for it.  I wish I hadn't given my set up.  :'(

Spotted Horses

I received the Brahms/Amadeus set and a quick sample contradicts my memory that the audio was strident or in some way unpleasant. I will be reacquainting myself with these recordings. My two favorite recordings of the Sextets have been the Raphael Ensemble and Archibudelli.

There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Herman

Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 11, 2023, 10:27:24 PMI received the Brahms/Amadeus set and a quick sample contradicts my memory that the audio was strident or in some way unpleasant. I will be reacquainting myself with these recordings. My two favorite recordings of the Sextets have been the Raphael Ensemble and Archibudelli.


There's also a DG Original Masters box, seven CDs of early Fifties Amadeus Qt recordings, including the two op. 51 quartets and the op. 67.
Other CDs are Haydn and Schubert.
It's a 2003 release, so I'm not optimistic about availability

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Herman on March 11, 2023, 11:07:29 PMThere's also a DG Original Masters box, seven CDs of early Fifties Amadeus Qt recordings, including the two op. 51 quartets and the op. 67.
Other CDs are Haydn and Schubert.
It's a 2003 release, so I'm not optimistic about availability

I see it is available as a lossless download, although the price is a bit steep. It might be worth downloading just the Brahms. I already have the companion "original masters" box with 1950's Mozart.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

kyjo

Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 06, 2023, 09:30:42 AMI had the DG set and find it unrewarding because I don't particularly like the Amadeus Quartet (the word the comes to mind is unctuous) and because I find the old DG sound for string quartets, quintets, sextets, etc, to be extremely strident and unpleasant. Of course, this is a matter of personal taste, and of course if you had the set you know if you like it.

Some of my favorite Brahms chamber music recordings are on Hyperion, so that would be a no brainer for me (if I didn't have it all on individual releases). The Raphael Ensemble is superb, as are the Florestan Trio. I guess the CDs are out of print but Hyperion sells the download on its site for a fair price (if you do downloads).

+1 The Amadeus Quartet recordings of Brahms' chamber music were my first encounters with this corner of the repertoire, and they turned me off to these wonderful works for several years, until I started exploring other, less "stodgy" performances. :)
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

Spotted Horses

Quote from: kyjo on March 15, 2023, 04:58:22 PM+1 The Amadeus Quartet recordings of Brahms' chamber music were my first encounters with this corner of the repertoire, and they turned me off to these wonderful works for several years, until I started exploring other, less "stodgy" performances. :)

Actually I got disenchanted with them after hearing some more recent interpretations such as the Raphael Ensemble, but after revisiting them it seems like I am growing attached to them again.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

DavidW

Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 15, 2023, 06:35:39 PMActually I got disenchanted with them after hearing some more recent interpretations such as the Raphael Ensemble, but after revisiting them it seems like I am growing attached to them again.

I went through much the same.  The Amadeus Q was my introduction to Brahms chamber music.  But I ended up replacing them with the more lean, muscular performances of the various ensembles found on Hyperion.  Years passed, I came back, and was pleasantly surprised how much I still liked those Amadeus Q recordings.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: kyjo on March 15, 2023, 04:58:22 PM+1 The Amadeus Quartet recordings of Brahms' chamber music were my first encounters with this corner of the repertoire, and they turned me off to these wonderful works for several years, until I started exploring other, less "stodgy" performances. :)

My violin teacher (Suzanne Rozsa) was married to Martin Lovett from the Amadeus.  On occasion you'd have to go her (his) house in Hampstead in London for lessons with Lovett prowling around.  He was quite a scary guy! (in the sense he was quite intense and "serious" about music).  Apparently rehearsals of the Amadeus frequently became massive arguments over interpretation etc.  I always felt that - probably through no fault of their own - they helped foster the image of chamber music as super-serious and played by old men in tuxedos.  There is a whole raft of British quartet music from pre-WWII that effectively stopped being played post-War because quartets like the Amadeus pretty much only played the German/Viennese "greats" (OK I know they played/commissioned one of Britten's quartets but no-one is saying that was their comfort zone....)

Jo498

Everything in classical music was played in tuxedos until very recently. Interestingly, when people started wearing them they did so to become "neutral" as it was the standard evening wear, so the orchestra or quartet would simply wear what almost everyone else was wearing (not everyone because 120 years ago there would be officers in colorful dress uniforms etc.).
And I doubt that the Busch, Budapest, or Juilliard quartet (although at least the last ones were doing a lot of modern/contemporary) were any less serious.
I don't really see how the Amadeus Q. playing Brahms and Mozart prevented any other ensemble from playing whatever the great British SQs of the 20th century might be...
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Jo498 on March 16, 2023, 10:08:34 AMEverything in classical music was played in tuxedos until very recently. Interestingly, when people started wearing them they did so to become "neutral" as it was the standard evening wear, so the orchestra or quartet would simply wear what almost everyone else was wearing (not everyone because 120 years ago there would be officers in colorful dress uniforms etc.).
And I doubt that the Busch, Budapest, or Juilliard quartet (although at least the last ones were doing a lot of modern/contemporary) were any less serious.
I don't really see how the Amadeus Q. playing Brahms and Mozart prevented any other ensemble from playing whatever the great British SQs of the 20th century might be...

Its actually quite a simple thing to assess.  If you look at the repertoire that the major pre-War British Quartets played and compare it to post-War there is a major shift in content.  I'm certainly not "blaming" the Amadeus but I think because they became pre-eminent as one of the finest quartets in the world the music they chose to play (because it suited them) became synonymous with the sort of music any/all quartets should perform.  If you go back to the major quartets in the 20's they were playing a wider range of music as well as the accepted classics.  This is an area I am particularly interested in - the "lost" British Chamber music of the inter-War years.  My own sense is that from the immediate post-War years for probably a good half century "Chamber Music" became perceived as something rather highbrow and the fact that nearly all the LP covers of any recordings (and publicity in general) were middle aged men looking painfully serious did not exactly lighten the mood.

San Antone

QuoteThis is an area I am particularly interested in - the "lost" British Chamber music of the inter-War years.

Have you heard any of the Maggini Quartet recordings of British composers? 

They have released probably a dozen or more recordings devoted to most of the major British composers (and some not so well known) and their string quartets.

Elgar
Britten
Rubbra
Alwyn
Maxwell Davies
Berkeley
Arnold
Rawsthorne
Bliss
Bridge
Bax
Walton
Vaughan Williams
Moeran

Roasted Swan

Quote from: San Antone on March 16, 2023, 10:56:09 AMHave you heard any of the Maggini Quartet recordings of British composers? 

They have released probably a dozen or more recordings devoted to most of the major British composers (and some not so well known) and their string quartets.

Elgar
Britten
Rubbra
Alwyn
Maxwell Davies
Berkeley
Arnold
Rawsthorne
Bliss
Bridge
Bax
Walton
Vaughan Williams
Moeran


The Maggini survey was excellent but none of these composers represent the "lost" compositions I was referring to.  Try the Edric Cundell for example ......

Spotted Horses

#1373
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 16, 2023, 12:51:57 PMThe Maggini survey was excellent but none of these composers represent the "lost" compositions I was referring to.  Try the Edric Cundell for example ......

I looked for recordings of works by Edric Cundrell and came up empty handed. The shroud of obscurity has enveloped his orchestral music, chamber music and vocal music and I don't see how the Amadeus Quartet can be faulted.

From my record collecting I gather that there were music festivals in early 20th century Britain that fostered the writing and performance of new music, and that was not sustained in the second half of the century. Perhaps there is a lot of music for enterprising string quartets to discover.

Maybe the "lost" compositions and composers would be a fitting subject for a thread.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Mandryka

Listening to the first quartet today, I kind of felt this was classical music at its worst. The form, with its repetitions and variations of themes, just seemed to rob the 20 minutes or so of the quartet's duration of all its potential interest. All the sounds, rhythms, melodies in a straightjacket. Brahms, let music be free! Frei aber froh!

It was the Dudok recording that I heard.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

vers la flamme

Quote from: Mandryka on March 27, 2023, 11:37:35 AMListening to the first quartet today, I kind of felt this was classical music at its worst. The form, with its repetitions and variations of themes, just seemed to rob the 20 minutes or so of the quartet's duration of all its potential interest. All the sounds, rhythms, melodies in a straightjacket. Brahms, let music be free! Frei aber froh!

It was the Dudok recording that I heard.

Harsh words, man. I haven't found much to love in Brahms's SQs yet but that doesn't encourage me to revisit them anytime soon.

Madiel

The quartets are excellent. When I first listened to them I didn't get the hate.
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Symphonic Addict

It's the 3rd mov. from the 1st SQ that does sound repetitive to the point of being somewhat tiresome, to me at least. OTOH, I love the 3rd SQ the most with its uncomplicated nature and nice tunes.
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Luke

Quote from: Madiel on March 27, 2023, 03:10:07 PMThe quartets are excellent. When I first listened to them I didn't get the hate.

I didn't, and I still don't. I don't recognise the quartets from that description - to me, the opposite is true, really: there is no straightforward repetition, instead there is what Schoenberg called Developing Variation (and he took precisely that C minor Quartet as the example par excellence). To me the supreme example of Brahms' unparalleled control of how his listeners actually experience the music (he gets this more than any other composer, I think) occurs in the A minor Quartet (Schoenberg took it's second movement as another such example). In this incredible piece the closing bars of the fourth movement bring us ever closer to the ambit of the opening bars of the first without ever quoting it, or even nearly quoting it. Instead, the music strips away layers of itself, coming closer and closer to the 'ur-shape' of the piece, so that these final bars are, and sound, utterly logical and inevitable without us really knowing why or exactly when the magic happened. The last movement, so different to the first, turns out to come from the same source. Total genius.

Mandryka

#1379
Quote from: Luke on March 27, 2023, 03:28:04 PMI didn't, and I still don't. I don't recognise the quartets from that description - to me, the opposite is true, really: there is no straightforward repetition, instead there is what Schoenberg called Developing Variation

Shapes of pitches keep getting repeated.

(Listing as I type this to the first movement of Schoenberg quartet III - I don't know if that was a Brahms inspired piece but it seems more inspired and free to me than the first movement of Brahms quartet I. No doubt it benefits from being liberated from common practice tonality. )
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen