Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[San Antone]

The string quartets of Brahms are (to me) incredibly well-written (not repetitive) and quintessentially composed for the string quartet medium.  My only regret is that he destroyed a number of string quartets, leaving us only three works. 

[Madiel]

Shapes of pitches keep getting repeated.

Which is true of any kind of music that has themes and develops them. That's how you recognise the music has a pattern rather than being a shapeless mass of notes.

Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of the Faun keeps repeating the shape of that initial flute line.

[Madiel]

I'm listening to op.51/1 again right now.

If music having repetitive obsessive rhythms in a straitjacket is the worst of classical music, as alleged, then all I can say is that Beethoven's 5th symphony must be one of the great nadirs of Western art.

Of course such music can be played badly and then it will sound boring. Which is true of much music. I can happily recommend the Melos Quartet as not being boring in Brahms.

[vers la flamme]

Beethoven's 5th symphony must be one of the great nadirs of Western art.

Knowing Mandryka I expect he would agree with that fully 

[Jo498]

The string quartets of Brahms are (to me) incredibly well-written (not repetitive) and quintessentially composed for the string quartet medium.  My only regret is that he destroyed a number of string quartets, leaving us only three works. 

We don't really know how many pieces were destroyed, how early they were and in what stage, they might not really have been fully completed or more like student pieces.
I think you have a very good point with what I bolded. I suspect that this might be one reason why some people don't like the Brahms quartets as much as some or most of his other chamber music. Compared to some colorful, almost orchestral effects of the sextets (or the beginning of the 2nd quintet) or the horn trio or clarinet quintet, they can appear austere.

[DavidW]

Of course such music can be played badly and then it will sound boring. Which is true of much music. I can happily recommend the Melos Quartet as not being boring in Brahms.

I also love the Melos Quartet in Schubert and Mozart.

[Luke]

We don't really know how many pieces were destroyed, how early they were and in what stage, they might not really have been fully completed or more like student pieces.
I think you have a very good point with what I bolded. I suspect that this might be one reason why some people don't like the Brahms quartets as much as some or most of his other chamber music. Compared to some colorful, almost orchestral effects of the sextets (or the beginning of the 2nd quintet) or the horn trio or clarinet quintet, they can appear austere.

Perhaps I'm weird but I love the Britten Quartet in these works. There's no way they could ever be described as austere. Full-blooded, gulpily-romantic playing.

[Spotted Horses]

Having just gotten the Amadeus Quartet's set of Brahms recordings I decided to reacquaint myself with the first quartet (the first movement at least). A powerful, uncompromising work, with moments of almost orchestral richness. I am going to enjoy going through these works again.

[lordlance]

It was quite good. An all-Brahms evening wouldn't normally attract me (though I like both pieces very much), but I was entertaining a friend from out of town, and that was the menu.

Shaham was in fine form, beautifully in tune and with a lovely violin tone. (He has two rare Stradivari instruments on loan—not sure which one he was using last night.)

But Stutzmann was perhaps the bigger draw. Friends in Minneapolis have heard her with the orchestra there, with positive comments. She is a trained vocalist, which is slightly unusual in the realm of "musicians who become conductors." (I.e., most seem to be pianists.) The orchestra is sounding great these days, and the timpanist was especially on point.

-Bruce

Not strictly related to the thread but seeing a post on Stutzmann makes me want to recommend a terrific Beethoven 5 she performed with RSPO: https://www.konserthuset.se/en/play/harp-and-beethovens-fifth-symphony/

[brewski]

Not strictly related to the thread but seeing a post on Stutzmann makes me want to recommend a terrific Beethoven 5 she performed with RSPO: https://www.konserthuset.se/en/play/harp-and-beethovens-fifth-symphony/

Thank you, both for this specific concert, and for making me aware of the Stockholm livestreams! Did not know they had jumped on the streaming bandwagon, and their programming looks great. I've already added most of these to my calendar.

https://www.konserthuset.se/en/play/

-Bruce

[lordlance]

Thank you, both for this specific concert, and for making me aware of the Stockholm livestreams! Did not know they had jumped on the streaming bandwagon, and their programming looks great. I've already added most of these to my calendar.

https://www.konserthuset.se/en/play/

-Bruce

Glad that you liked the recommendation. It may also interest you to know that there is a complete Sibelius cycle by Oramo - his farewell concerts as RSPO MD.

[Jo498]

Perhaps I'm weird but I love the Britten Quartet in these works. There's no way they could ever be described as austere. Full-blooded, gulpily-romantic playing.

I have not heard these interpretations but I also don't really think of the quartets as austere sounding. My point was that they sound like string quartets and do not try to sound like sextets. Brahms is  on record for disliking sound or effects for their own sake and while he did use the larger ensembles for more "luxurious" sound, as in the beginning of the G major quintet but there are no orchestral or special effects in the string quartets.

The quartets are also rather diverse. The Bb major is the most "classicist" but only in the outer movements.
The a minor seems a bit of an homage to Schubert's a minor quartet, I don't find it austere at all.
I also found the outer movements of the c minor dramatic and gripping even as a teenager with little experience listening to string quartets. Admittedly, the 3rd movement of the 1st is probably the most difficult for me of all, it seems too long for its material and hard to play well. It works when done well but it's probably never going to be a great favorite.

[lordlance]

I used to dislike Haydn Variations quite a bit but this performance has made me like it more: https://www.konserthuset.se/en/play/haydn-schumann-and-brahms/


A spirited performance by Gilbert and Royal Stockholm Phil.

[Mandryka]

I didn't, and I still don't. I don't recognise the quartets from that description - to me, the opposite is true, really: there is no straightforward repetition, instead there is what Schoenberg called Developing Variation (and he took precisely that C minor Quartet as the example par excellence). To me the supreme example of Brahms' unparalleled control of how his listeners actually experience the music (he gets this more than any other composer, I think) occurs in the A minor Quartet (Schoenberg took it's second movement as another such example). In this incredible piece the closing bars of the fourth movement bring us ever closer to the ambit of the opening bars of the first without ever quoting it, or even nearly quoting it. Instead, the music strips away layers of itself, coming closer and closer to the 'ur-shape' of the piece, so that these final bars are, and sound, utterly logical and inevitable without us really knowing why or exactly when the magic happened. The last movement, so different to the first, turns out to come from the same source. Total genius.

This is bugging me a bit, the bit I put in italics,  because I can't remember Schoenberg talking about the first quartet. I can remember that when he mentions Developing Variation in "Brahms the Progressive", he talks about the second quartet, the A minor. What is it you're thinking of?

I agree, by the way, that the second movement of the A minor is interesting precisely because of the way the theme is developed, and what you say about the fourth movement is really interesting. But in the quartet I reacted so negatively to, the C minor, the predetermined subsections of the form seem to conflict with developing variation, at least in some of the movements.

[Luke]

This is bugging me a bit, the bit I put in italics,  because I can't remember Schoenberg talking about the first quartet. I can remember that when he mentions Developing Variation in "Brahms the Progressive", he talks about the second quartet, the A minor. What is it you're thinking of?

No, he wrote about the slow movement of the A minor later, but the C minor was his first exemplar in the same essay. See the note here, for example. https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dw.asp?dc=W8240_44331 

Edit so yes, to be clear, he talks about both, but you're right that the A minor is the one where talks about motivic development. With the C minor he's more talking about harmony, modulation, form...

[Mandryka]

No, he wrote about the slow movement of the A minor later, but the C minor was his first exemplar in the same essay. See the note here, for example. https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dw.asp?dc=W8240_44331 

Edit so yes, to be clear, he talks about both, but you're right that the A minor is the one where talks about motivic development. With the C minor he's more talking about harmony, modulation, form...

Cheers, I just can't find my copy of the paper and I can't see the whole thing online either. I don't understand Developing Variations well enough to be clear whether the third movement of the C minor is an example -- I'm out of my depth now!

[Mandryka]

Compared to some colorful, almost orchestral effects of the sextets (or the beginning of the 2nd quintet) or the horn trio or clarinet quintet, they can appear austere.

I can't resist mentioning this, but I just noticed that according to the English wikipedia page on the Brahms quartets, Misha Donat wouldn't agree with you about this (see footnote 1.)  I have no idea how to arbitrate, out of my depth again! I won't pontificate.

. . . the harmonically sophisticated, "orchestrally inclined" outer movements that bracket its more intimate inner movements

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets,_Op._51_(Brahms)#cite_note-Donat08-1

[Luke]

Cheers, I just can't find my copy of the paper and I can't see the whole thing online either. I don't understand Developing Variations well enough to be clear whether the third movement of the C minor is an example -- I'm out of my depth now!

It's here if you still want it

https://monoskop.org/images/8/84/Schoenberg_Arnold_Style_and_Idea.pdf

[DavidW]

Hi all, I moved the discussion of Schoenberg's interesting book here because it has nothing to do with Brahms.  Please carry on discussing one of my favorite composers.

[vers la flamme]

Is there any good HIP Brahms cycle?

Not that I need another Brahms cycle, I have, I think, five—Klemperer/Philharmonia (EMI), Alsop/LPO (Naxos), Jochum/LPO (EMI), Szell/Chicago (Decca) & Karajan/Berlin (DG). But I love the Brahms symphonies so much, and I'd be curious to hear them on "original" instruments.

Second question, what's a good Brahms cycle with a German or Austrian orchestra? I'm well-represented on American and British orchestras, and I'm just not crazy about Karajan's Brahms.

I just finished Jan Swafford's excellent Brahms bio, which I started way back in 2020. Such an excellent bio, and now I'm on a bit of a Brahms kick!