Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[Brahmsian]

In my view, it is not nostalgia that distinguishes Brahms.  It is hard to put it quite into words, but the closest maybe poignancy.  In Tchaikovsky, for instance, you are hearing horror or bliss, happiness or misery, glorious victory or abject defeat.  It is all primary colors.  In Brahms, I hear subtle blends of emotions.  A tranquil melody, with a harmony that adds a note of disquiet, joy with a tinge of sadness, pain, but with a sub-current of serenity.  Other composers so it, but none do it quite like Brahms.

He was also traditionalist and an innovator at the same time.  The introduction of a passacaglia as the finale of a symphony, for instance.

Agree with you, Scarpia.  For me, what I love about Brahms is his careful restraint in overt Romanticism.  He rarely completely lets loose.  One major exception (and there are a few others) is his Piano Concerto No. 1.  He doesn't hold anything back on that fantastic piece! 

[Parsifal]

Agree with you, Scarpia.  For me, what I love about Brahms is his careful restraint in overt Romanticism.  He rarely completely lets loose.  One major exception (and there are a few others) is his Piano Concerto No. 1.  He doesn't hold anything back on that fantastic piece! 

I see what you mean, I would not use the word "restraint" to describe Brahms.  I find the expressive intensity of Brahms to be as strong as any composer, but blended.  Like tasting a strongly seasoned curry, as opposed to biting a jalapeno pepper.   Another metaphor, listening to Mahler I hear the music throwing a tantrum, in Brahms, feeling deeply.

[dbrcarson]

In my view, it is not nostalgia that distinguishes Brahms.  It is hard to put it quite into words, but the closest maybe poignancy.  In Tchaikovsky, for instance, you are hearing horror or bliss, happiness or misery, glorious victory or abject defeat.  It is all primary colors.  In Brahms, I hear subtle blends of emotions.  A tranquil melody, with a harmony that adds a note of disquiet, joy with a tinge of sadness, pain, but with a sub-current of serenity.  Other composers so it, but none do it quite like Brahms.

He was also traditionalist and an innovator at the same time.  The introduction of a passacaglia as the finale of a symphony, for instance.

That's a very good way to describe it. Brahms was more subtle than the other late romantics. I feel like that's also a result of his incorporation of tradition. Composers in the eighteenth and early nineteenth century never fully "let loose" in their emotionalism. Even Beethoven in his 9th still kept his emotions constrained within proper symphonic form. And Mendelssohn and Schumann were both tradtionalists as well when it came to their symphonies. The difference, however, seems to be that with these older composers, it was the norm to write music with structural and harmonic integrity steeped in tradition. Whereas with Brahms, he was in the minority with these things in mind. He was largely trying to postpone the inevitable end of musical tradition, while most of his contemporaries embraced the "New German School."

[NorthNYMark]

In my view, it is not nostalgia that distinguishes Brahms.  It is hard to put it quite into words, but the closest maybe poignancy.  In Tchaikovsky, for instance, you are hearing horror or bliss, happiness or misery, glorious victory or abject defeat.  It is all primary colors.  In Brahms, I hear subtle blends of emotions.  A tranquil melody, with a harmony that adds a note of disquiet, joy with a tinge of sadness, pain, but with a sub-current of serenity.  Other composers so it, but none do it quite like Brahms.

He was also traditionalist and an innovator at the same time.  The introduction of a passacaglia as the finale of a symphony, for instance.

Great points! I think what you are describing has a lot to do with what I find so appealing about Brahms, even in relation to other well-known composers of his era.

[NorthNYMark]

Agree with you, Scarpia.  For me, what I love about Brahms is his careful restraint in overt Romanticism.  He rarely completely lets loose.  One major exception (and there are a few others) is his Piano Concerto No. 1.  He doesn't hold anything back on that fantastic piece! 

That is (thus far) my favorite work of his.  However, I'm not sure that his characteristic restraint doesn't play a role in it as well.  For example, although the opening theme fits your description of nothing being held back, I feel like the way the secondary theme (the one introduced by the solo horn) is developed in the middle of the first movement involves quite a bit of pulling back, as if teasing us with the return of the main theme's grandiosity (and even sections where the secondary theme seems to be reaching for that kind of sweeping intensity), but keeping the tension up by exploring it carefully and often quietly.  Of course, since the main theme does eventually return in an explosive manner, I suppose one could still say that nothing is held back--yet, I believe the effectiveness of that return has been prepared for us in a brilliantly controlled manner.

[dbrcarson]

Everybody's okay!

[Artem]

This is probably a silly question, but does anybody know if it is preferable to buy the 4th Symphony conducted by Kleiber on the "originals" series or previously released cd version? I'm talking about there two here:



or

[Dancing Divertimentian]

This is probably a silly question, but does anybody know if it is preferable to buy the 4th Symphony conducted by Kleiber on the "originals" series or previously released cd version? I'm talking about there two here:



or

I don't know first-hand but everything I've read gives a huge thumb's up to the newer "Originals" remastering. Apparently the first CD issue isn't a success - too shrill.

[Artem]

Thank you. I found the reviews on amazon to be a bit contradictory regarding the remastering.

[DavidW]

Thank you. I found the reviews on amazon to be a bit contradictory regarding the remastering.

That suggests that there is no audible difference, if there is the same quantity of contradictory opinion.

[mc ukrneal]

This is probably a silly question, but does anybody know if it is preferable to buy the 4th Symphony conducted by Kleiber on the "originals" series or previously released cd version? I'm talking about there two here:



or

There is also this one...
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[ibanezmonster]

Brahms is the only composer for whose music I feel such an intense feeling of nostalgia.

He is certainly the best composer when it comes to nostalgia and probably even melancholy in general. Mahler can be nostalgic, but no one really comes close to Brahms.

This aspect of his musical language can mean different things to different people, but to me it was always a desire to go off into another world that never existed. Also, much of the Paganini Variations are extremely nostalgic to me and always make me think back to when I was a kid and my neighborhood back then.

[Karl Henning]

Not to say that there are not nostalgic passages in Mahler (for there are), but as I interpret the matter, nostalgia is an affair of the interior, and Mahler generally is quite frankly extroverted.

Even at his most declamatory, almost, I feel that Brahms is essentially conversing with himself.

[ibanezmonster]

I'm not sure what people mean when they say music is "extroverted" or "introverted," though...

[Karl Henning]

Hey, that's a good discussion to have.

[ibanezmonster]

I'm guessing that loud and emotionally extreme would be considered "extrovert" and the opposite of that would be "introvert."

As for "nostalgic" Mahler, I'd say much of Das Klagende Lied and the fourth movement of the third symphony might be in that realm... but now that I think about it, probably the biggest influence of Brahms was Schumann. Kinderszenen, for example, can be somewhat nostalgic, so I'd credit Schumann for being the biggest external factor that lead to Brahms' nostalgic musical language...

In fact, it might even be reasonable to say that Brahms was an updated version of Schumann's music...

[not edward]

Agree very much with the introversion in Brahms, particularly after, I guess, about opus 40. (I think the 2nd and 3rd symphonies are great examples of introversion in the symphonic form.)

Off-topic: I think one of the interesting aspects in Mahler's last works (Das Lied von der Erde and the 9th and 10th symphonies) is that an increasingly important structural and emotional element is the tension between public and private expression within a single work. (A particularly obvious case is the contrast between the odd and even-numbered movements in Das Lied von der Erde, but it's perhaps more thoroughly explored in the instrumental symphonies.)

[DavidW]

It suggests rather that different versions appeal to different tastes.

I don't think so.  One makes the claim that remastering "always deletes atmosphere" because the idiot confuses noise reduction with remastering.  It doesn't sound like the person hears a difference, he was just interested in making a blank assertion.  The other reviewer says that the remastered version is noticeably better, but lacks in any supporting evidence.  Both of these reviews suggest a lack of perception of what differences there are between the two recordings.  Their opinions are formed by confirmation bias.  They hear what they expect to hear.  It doesn't matter what their tastes are, it is not clear that there even is a difference in sound quality.

[ibanezmonster]

You know what is most difficult about Brahms?
Imitating him.


I find it almost too easy to imitate some of the major composers, but Brahms is another story. I know of things about his musical language that are "Brahmsian-" lots of syncopation, classical forms (especially theme and variations), certain chord progressions, etc. but for example, the first four bars of the 4th symphony:

Em- Am- Adim- Em

Even before it goes into the next bars which are even more unmistakeably his, this chord progression is very generic and if you just imagine the melody played by the violins and have the other strings (violas, for example) play this chord progression in eight notes with nothing else going on, you have what sounds like the opening of a Mozart symphony!

[Karl Henning]

Aye, easier to imitate Mendelssohn (oh, I kid, I kid . . . .)