Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

Started by BachQ, April 07, 2007, 03:23:22 AM

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Wakefield

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 03, 2013, 06:32:18 AM
Many here at GMG know that Brahms has been one of my favourites for quite some time.

I have to honestly say though, melancholic and nostalgic are not words, terms or visions that come to mind for me.  ???

Perhaps, in the Adagio to the Piano Concerto No. 1, written in the memory of his lost friend, Robert Schumann.

... I think the first movement of the cello sonata No. 1 is quite close to those terms.
"One of the greatest misfortunes of honest people is that they are cowards. They complain, keep quiet, dine and forget."
-- Voltaire

ibanezmonster

Quote from: Mandryka on November 03, 2013, 01:20:15 AM
No, I don't think so. What you posted is melancholic I think, but it's something which the Perrahia has overlaid on the music.
Here's Backhaus.

I don't think nostalgia or melancholy was quite so dominant in his interpretation, not in Yudina neither


The tradition of a dominating autumnal nostalgic melancholy in late Brahms is  well established, the old bloke crying into his beer,  But there are other equally valid ways of interpreting what Brahms was up to in the music.
I can still hear some melancholy in both of those videos, but it is much, much less compared to the other performances I've heard.

Yudina's version makes it actually sound somewhat of a determined and heroic piece. But, I think, the common impression I get for that specific piece after hearing the very different interpretations is that it sounds like some sort of ending or farewell, however it's played. It's just one aspect of his harmonic writing that gives me this impression.

Another aspect of Brahms' harmonic writing that I really like is that he seems to be the first composer, other than Beethoven (and Liszt?), to be able to write really mysterious music. The Paganini Variations, for example (pretty much tied with a piano work of my own as favorite piano work). He turned into a wizard while writing that.

ibanezmonster

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 03, 2013, 06:32:18 AM
Perhaps, in the Adagio to the Piano Concerto No. 1, written in the memory of his lost friend, Robert Schumann.
I would get that feeling if that movement didn't totally teleport me to its own unique world...

ibanezmonster

Quote from: The new erato on November 03, 2013, 01:39:10 AM
Well, the gloomiest piece I know of is in C major, Schubert's string quintet. Schubert seems to have mastered the art of being depressed in joyful keys like nobody else.
Dude... you are totally forgetting about Mahler here. The 9th symphony is in D & Db major and the 10th is in F# major.

Brahmsian

Quote from: Greg on November 03, 2013, 02:02:11 PM
I would get that feeling if that movement didn't totally teleport me to its own unique world...

Well, it does that to me too!  :)

ibanezmonster

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 03, 2013, 02:05:41 PM
Well, it does that to me too!  :)
The first time I heard it was in MIDI format and I couldn't believe the opening melody being almost entirely quarter notes; it sounded so odd, yet after a few listens its simplicity started to make sense. I still feel it's a one-of-a-kind thing.


ibanezmonster

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 02, 2013, 10:31:08 PM
Try BWV 198, Trauerode. It's always struck me as melancholy...though not a spiral into destruction. But daring and purposeful (and ragingly beautiful). I have Herreweghe. I found a Youtube of Herreweghe:

It can also be just parts of a cantata, like my favorite cantata of all, BWV 8. Check out the opening movement:
Hmm, the impression I got after listening to the first 5 or so minutes of each wasn't melancholy, but something close to it, although I can't think of a word to describe it.

Brahmsian

Quote from: Greg on November 03, 2013, 02:08:32 PM
The first time I heard it was in MIDI format and I couldn't believe the opening melody being almost entirely quarter notes; it sounded so odd, yet after a few listens its simplicity started to make sense. I still feel it's a one-of-a-kind thing.

It is a very special piece for me, indeed.  (re: Adagio of PC# 1).  When I attended a live performance of it, some 4 or 5 years ago, I wept when the Adagio was played.  I was just so moved by it.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Greg on November 03, 2013, 02:11:10 PM
Hmm, the impression I got after listening to the first 5 or so minutes of each wasn't melancholy, but something close to it, although I can't think of a word to describe it.

Indescribable. Yep, that's Bach! ;D


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

mc ukrneal

Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Dancing Divertimentian

Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

kishnevi

Quote from: Gordo Shumway on November 03, 2013, 06:29:40 AM
As so many others maybe this is only a terminological discussion. But an interesting one.

I guess I would need some time to justify this assertion, but I think that a world with a strong sense of the divinity is not easily melancholic (and I was talking principally about Baroque sacred music). Its natural "negative" feelings are remorse and guilt and then pain and tears.

But pain and tears could have many other external and internal causes. And melancholy is more natural in a secularized world.

Reflecting on melancholy -as Froberger- is not necessarily to be a melancholic person, if I say: There is no reason to the sadness because all of this has a sense. 


It should be noted that "melancholy" in the period before (more or less) 1700 had a broader meaning:  while it primarily referred to depression, sorrow and other related mental states, it could also refer to mental imbalance in general--thus, Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy discusses a number of mental states we moderns don't associate with sadness or depression.

The new erato

Quote from: Greg on November 03, 2013, 02:05:35 PM
Dude... you are totally forgetting about Mahler here. The 9th symphony is in D & Db major and the 10th is in F# major.
Well, not really. I'm not a musical theorist, but my understanding is that all majors and minors are not created equal (in which case I guess all composer wouldn't be bothered with all the various versions). I guess that has to do with relationships between notes, temperament (scales aren't perfect) and instrumental textures. C major is usually considered particularly simple and joyful.

Also, in big and complex works, all a key telles you is where the music (usually) starts and (slightly less frequently) ends. In between large parts of the music is in related, and sometimes  not quite so related, keys. I wouldn't be particularly surprised if that were the case with the Mahler works you mention, whereas in the Schubert large parts of the gloomiest stuff actually are in C major (or in closely related keys). 

ibanezmonster

Quote from: The new erato on November 03, 2013, 09:59:09 PM
In between large parts of the music is in related, and sometimes  not quite so related, keys. I wouldn't be particularly surprised if that were the case with the Mahler works you mention, whereas in the Schubert large parts of the gloomiest stuff actually are in C major (or in closely related keys).
He does use minor key sections, but the major keys sound even more crushing because of the intervals he uses. I'd say probably the easiest part to discern this is the very end of the 9th, the part with strings only. It is very clearly in Db major throughout, but of course with some chromatics... I've never looked at the Schubert score, though, so I couldn't compare it.


kyjo

#674
I must say I'm most impressed with the op. 111 String Quintet (which I listened to from the DG set)! I especially loved the first movement, which has a life-affirming, "heroic" air which I don't normally associate with the composer. I usually get bored by Brahms' slow movements, but the haunting melancholy of this one really kept my attention. The final two movements didn't grab me quite as much, but that's probably just because I was getting tired by the time I got to them. :) I think the reason I really liked this work is because of its interesting use of harmony (especially in the first movement).

kyjo

#675
What do you guys think about the Scherzo from the Piano Quintet? I must say that this movement has probably grabbed me more than anything else by Brahms. The threatening, uneasy, and even violent atmosphere Brahms creates in this movement is quite captivating. I've been humming it for weeks now!

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: kyjo on November 06, 2013, 11:20:53 AM
I must say I'm most impressed with the op. 111 String Quintet (which I listened to from the DG set)! I especially loved the first movement, which has a life-affirming, "heroic" air which I don't normally associate with the composer. I usually get bored by Brahms' slow movements, but the haunting melancholy of this one really kept my attention. The final two movements didn't grab me quite as much, but that's probably just because I was getting tired by the time I got to them. :) I think the reason I really liked this work is because of its interesting use of harmony (especially in the first movement).

Op. 111 is great, and yes the 'haunting' adagio is a beauty.

For a real emotionally grinding finale listen to the piano quartet No.3 op. 60.

kyjo

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 06, 2013, 11:37:16 AM
Op. 111 is great, and yes the 'haunting' adagio is a beauty.

For a real emotionally grinding finale listen to the piano quartet No.3 op. 60.

Thanks-I'll check it out! :)

Brahmsian

Quote from: kyjo on November 06, 2013, 11:25:09 AM
What do you guys think about the Scherzo from the Piano Quintet? I must say that this movement has probably grabbed me more than anything else by Brahms. The threatening, uneasy, and even violent atmosphere Brahms creates in this movement is quite captivating. I've been humming it for weeks now!

It is a dandy, Kyle!  :)

Perhaps my favourite Brahms Scherzo movement, is in his 3rd Piano Quartet in C minor, the 2nd movement.  It is fabulous, as is that entire Piano Quartet.


Edit:  Greg beat me to the punch.  Yes, see Piano Quartet 3, Op. 60  ;D

kyjo

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 06, 2013, 11:55:09 AM
It is a dandy, Kyle!  :)

Perhaps my favourite Brahms Scherzo movement, is in his 3rd Piano Quartet in C minor, the 2nd movement.  It is fabulous, as is that entire Piano Quartet.


Edit:  Greg beat me to the punch.  Yes, see Piano Quartet 3, Op. 60  ;D

Sounds fantastic, Ray! :)