Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Brahms of course is the master of many things musical but until now I'd never really thought about one aspect of his style which is part-and-parcel for some composers but doesn't seem to be an overarching theme in his own music: color.

Not that Brahms had any deficiency in that area but seldom does color bubble itself to the surface to the point where it can actually carry a piece. Not so with the "Haydn" Variations. Of course Brahms's trademark architecture is everywhere in evidence here but the piece almost sounds as if it sprang to life after a close encounter with Strauss's Schatten or some Ravel orchestral work or other. Cool surprise.

[Jo498]

All three piano quartets (and the trio op.8 ) are also in the big Heimbach festival box which is worthwhile for those interested in chamber music.

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I seem to recall a remark by someone who was generally not very fond of Brahms and his orchestration, but singled out the "Haydn variations" for praise. Personally I never understood what was supposed to be wrong with Brahms orchestration. It seems obvious that he preferred "darker" an subdued colors, so sure, it does not sound like Wagner or Tchaikovsky, but it sounds fine to me. Apart from a few pieces (like the Paganini Var.) his piano music also does not sound as flashy as e.g. Liszt (although some of it is apparently also fiendishly difficult to play).

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I have never understood either why some people (even critics) see Brahms's orchestration as muddy and uninteresting. I actually regard him as one of the greatest orchestrators ever (opinion which is not necessarily shared by that many, even by those who like it).

[Karl Henning]

I have never understood either why some people (even critics) see Brahms's orchestration as muddy and uninteresting. I actually regard him as one of the greatest orchestrators ever (opinion which is not necessarily shared by that many, even by those who like it).

He was indeed a great orchestrator, and his characteristic use of the orchestra is quite a distinct thumbprint.

[Karl Henning]

Man, but that Op.34 pf quintet is a corker!

[Florestan]

Personally I never understood what was supposed to be wrong with Brahms orchestration.

Brahms, Chopin, Schumann, Rachmaninoff... there's a long list of supposedly bad orchestrators. 

But as long as the accusations come mostly from people who are not able to decently orchestrate "Twinkle, twinkle, little star" I shall ignor them altogether. 

It seems obvious that he preferred "darker" an subdued colors, so sure, it does not sound like Wagner or Tchaikovsky,

Wagner and Tchaikovsky are galaxies apart, but besides that, why should Brahms sound like anybody else?

but it sounds fine to me.

You'll never walk alone.

Apart from a few pieces (like the Paganini Var.) his piano music also does not sound as flashy as e.g. Liszt (although some of it is apparently also fiendishly difficult to play).

There is flashy Liszt, and there is intraverted and philosophical Liszt --- Brahms couldn't orchestrate, Liszt couldn't write for the piano... 

I think both criticisms are directed not so much at this or that composer, but at Romanticism itself; and they are both as misguided as it gets. Paraphrasing Schnabel, one could say that "Romanticism is the most inaccessible of historical periods", and this despite its being the closest to us. 

(I might even start a thread about it...)

[Scion7]

That whole orchestration guff stems from the 19th century "Brahms (Schumann, Schubert, Mendlessohn) vs. Wagner (Liszt, Berlioz)" argument - senseless, but the competition may have spurred both parties' camps to work harder?  Anyway, Brahms' reputation has continued to grow critically and his music to become more popular ever since his death - so much for the "bad orchestrator" claims.

[SonicMan46]

Recently, I've been adding & culling out my collection of Brahm's string chamber works, but today put on some orchestral music, specifically the Symphonies w/ Otto Klemperer; I own the 3-CD set below left, but just noticed a 40th anniversary box related to his death (1973) - just wondering if anyone might know whether these 'new' recordings have been re-mastered vs. the earlier release - thanks.  Dave

 

[Madiel]

The Brahms chamber expedition has brought me back to the Second String Sextet, op.36, which was busy bowling me over back in March when I first bought it.

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It's still having the same effect. The first movement is amazing. The OPENING of the first movement is amazing. It has this extraordinary veiled quality.

The second movement 'scherzo' isn't initially all that scherzoid (?) and feels like it's going to just patter glumly along, but I love how in the middle it explodes into the major and gets far more vigorous. And the slow movement is just sublime... it has that special restrained yearning quality that Brahms can generate, and then it finally lets loose a bit, and after that seems a little happier but is still reaching out and unfolding.

And then the finale swings by in 9/8 time. Lots of shifts in tone, sometimes scurrying and sometimes bold, but always a fitting conclusion to this work.

You know, it's still early days with this piece, and even with my Brahms exploration as there's quite a few works to come in this listening project that I don't know well or don't know at all, but I think this is well on the way to becoming a personal favourite.

[Artem]

I'm listening to the same cd as I read Jan Swafford biography of Brahms and I'm finding the 1st String Sextet very enjoyable, especially the first two movements.

[Artem]

I'm looking for a recomendation for a collection of Brahms' earlier songs, which were composed before the German Requiem.

[Madiel]

My chamber quest has reached the Cello Sonata No.1 in E minor, op.38.

For which I have Paul Tortelier and his daughter, Maria de la Pau. I have listened to this before, but so long ago (4 years) and so infrequently (I think that was basically the period when I bought the EMI Recordings box that includes this performance) that it might as well be a brand new purchase.

It's striking how dark and somber much of the first movement is, which makes Brahms' decision to get rid of the 'slow' movement rather understandable. The cello spends a lot of time deep down in its register. There are some flashes of stronger passion though!

Then you have what seems to be a consciously quaint minuet as a bit of relief, with a lusher trio. Followed by the semi-fugal finale... Wow! This is where the music really seems to have a lot of passion. A very satisfying ending.

I definitely think I'm going to enjoy getting to know this better. Like most of these chamber works, frankly.

[Brahmsian]

My chamber quest has reached the Cello Sonata No.1 in E minor, op.38.

Another masterpiece (and prefer this one to the 2nd Cello Sonata).  I seem to prefer the "1st" in several of Brahms' chamber dual works (Cello Sonata, String Quintet, String Sextet, Clarinet/Viola Sonata).

[Jo498]

I also love the e minor sonata and prefer it to the second one and I can understand that Brahms left out an adagio (I think he had originally planned or even sketched one) after the long and not too fast first movement, but I am not so fond of the Menuetto. The first movement also seems to be a nod to both Beethoven's great A major sonata and Schubert's "Arpeggione" Sonata, the finale almost quotes one or two fugues from Bach's Art of Fugue.
So it's another perfect fusion of Brahm's respect for past masters, personal style and highly emotional romanticism.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Another fan of e minor sonata here o/. I also prefer it to the second one. Even though it is in minor key, the work doesn't sound (to me that is) that sad or tragic, merely thoughtful, psychological.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Brahms, Chopin, Schumann, Rachmaninoff... there's a long list of supposedly bad orchestrators. 

This is a most interesting point to me (in that list I hear only Chopin as a poor orchestrator) - it used to be said among musicians that they have "a favorite composer and Brahms," a nice compliment to the man.  I've never met a musician who outright dislikes him.  Yet from each and every classical fan who dislikes Brahms I hear the same thing :  "it's the texture," or "there's something about his texture I don't like" or "he's too thick," are common complaints.  Always makes me wonder if they would find the same 'density' in his chamber work, or not.

[Florestan]

This is a most interesting point to me (in that list I hear only Chopin as a poor orchestrator)

Please show me where, how, and why, you would improve his orchestration. 

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Please show me where, how, and why, you would improve his orchestration. 

First, by having some...   Seriously, I have tried over the course of three decades to appreciate his two piano concertos.  Sadly, I lack the ability or insight to do so.  The pianism is unmistakable Chopin, of course, full of sparkling gems, charming moments, memorable melodies.  I'm more than willing to abandon 'classicism' - I do so on a daily basis! - and accept the subservience of orchestra to piano, though confessedly here I'd be happier if Chopin had been a better parent and taught the King of Instruments to "play nicely with others."  I just don't hear his orchestral writing - stingy and uninventive as it seems to me, as serving an harmonic function (though I know some do). I  suspect it's evidence of Chopin's weakness in this area.  The two concertos are products of his youth.  I'm not alone; Balakirev, Tausig and Chihara (there's also a strings-only re-orchestration of the first by Rajski) thought badly enough of Chopin's orchestration to attempt their own versions.  Dunno if they fared any better as I haven't heard them.  I would start my own re-orchestration today but the market seems to be already saturated!   To be sure, there are some interesting moments - in the slow movement in the Fm - for example, where he shows us what he can do.  His tuttis are esp. annoying - they sound like they were written for the piano.  The piano is the many-colored prism through which Chopin sees the world; no shame in specialization and particularly not when the piano is your orchestra as seems to me in Chopin's case.  I would like to hear Ax's recording on the Erard, which someone (Fanfare?) said was the recording to hear if you didn't care for the concertos.  I've always felt Chopin is outta his element in the Big Form, though I like to keep an open mind - not much point in a closed one which by definition may not be a mind at all - if anyone can teach me the error of my ways...

[Mandryka]

I'm looking for a recomendation for a collection of Brahms' earlier songs, which were composed before the German Requiem.

For op 33 I like Schreier very much, and Fischer Dieskau 1950s recording on Audite. Generally all those FiDi recordings on Audite are worth exploring, but you'll find the early songs are scattered around. There is, for example, a lovely "Wie bist du, meine Königen", op 32, from the 1970s on one of them.

Thomas Allen is also worth digging in to - I remember a nice op 43 on a CD with Parsons.

Another one that comes to mind is Schwarzkopff singing Liebestreu. Oh, and Julia Culp singing Muss es eine trennung geben.

One good thing - though it may be contemporaneous with the Requiem - is Heinrich Rehkemper's recording of Botschaft.

[Artem]

Thank you very much for the suggestions. I'm off to Amazon!