Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

[SonicMan46]

   I have this one. About playing, it is typical Staatkapelle Dresden, precise excecution with refined, dark sound.  A fairly slow tempo cycle, just like the old Sanderling's with the same orchestra, but Thielemann puts his stamp by occasionaly fluctuating tempo (but well judicious). The standout for me is the Third, it ranks with James Levine's account with VPO as my favorite digital performance and the Violin Concerto with violinist Bastiashvili, but otherwise is great too. Actually, I prefer it to the more progressive cycle by Chailly and LGO on Decca.

Just curious about the Thielemann set - looked @ the description and was particularly interested in the DVD - all apparently recorded live and just a few years ago - how is the sound on these recordings & the video on the DVD?  Also, how 'evident' is the audience, i.e. have the applause, coughs, cell phones going off, etc. been eliminated? Thanks - Dave

[trung224]

 I don't have the DVD one, but booklet shows they are the same performances for both CD and DVD. About the sound, they are very good, detailed, natural. Everything else like applause, coughs,.. has been eliminated. I think just like many live recordings from DG, they are indeed frankenstein-like from live and rehearsal performances.

[Drasko]

   I have this one. About playing, it is typical Staatkapelle Dresden, precise excecution with refined, dark sound.  A fairly slow tempo cycle, just like the old Sanderling's with the same orchestra, but Thielemann puts his stamp by occasionaly fluctuating tempo (but well judicious). The standout for me is the Third, it ranks with James Levine's account with VPO as my favorite digital performance and the Violin Concerto with violinist Bastiashvili, but otherwise is great too. Actually, I prefer it to the more progressive cycle by Chailly and LGO on Decca.

Thanks, I think I'll give it a go. Rich orchestral sound and tempo pulling is something one comes to expect from Thielemann, but until former doesn't get muddy and latter maintains the pulse it's all fine. I think I'm in the mood for some romantic opulence.

[not edward]

I've been revisiting a lot of Brahms over the holidays, and am constantly amazed at what good quality control he had: I don't think I've heard a single turkey even though I've been listening mostly to the lesser-known works. And of course, every now and then there's something that absolutely blows me away, like the last of the Thirteen Canons for Female Chorus, op 113 (go on, how many of you know this piece?).

https://www.youtube.com/v/bFb1O4B82w4

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I've been revisiting a lot of Brahms over the holidays, and am constantly amazed at what good quality control he had: I don't think I've heard a single turkey even though I've been listening mostly to the lesser-known works. And of course, every now and then there's something that absolutely blows me away, like the last of the Thirteen Canons for Female Chorus, op 113 (go on, how many of you know this piece?).

Beautiful!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I've been revisiting a lot of Brahms over the holidays, and am constantly amazed at what good quality control he had: I don't think I've heard a single turkey even though I've been listening mostly to the lesser-known works. And of course, every now and then there's something that absolutely blows me away, like the last of the Thirteen Canons for Female Chorus, op 113 (go on, how many of you know this piece?).

That's a stunner (and no, I had never heard it or even heard of it).

This reminds me that Brahms seemed to be striving to recapture the devotional spirit of Bach or the Renaissance masters, but with a secular outlook. It's worth recalling that he was one of the few musicians of his time to delve into early music seriously.

[Madiel]

It's like you all stop talking about Brahms while I'm away...

Back on the chamber music trail, and today I introduced myself to the first string quartet (op.51/1).

[asin]B004KDO2IO[/asin]

I was honestly surprised by how animated and intense this music is (well, the first and last movements in particular). I guess there's a tendency to think of Brahms as a bit mellow, and certainly inward looking, but this is quite literally pulsating stuff.

I think the 3rd movement is the other big surprise, with its shift from 4/8 to a thoroughly rustic 3/4.

Of course, I've no idea how this recording compares to others, but I was pretty darn happy listening to this.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Brahms's chamber music works are really a one big mystery. How can he keep that quality work after work after work? Pretty much every published chamber music composition of his could IMO be argued to be a masterpiece. In fact in general his compositions are remarkably high-quality, even outside of chamber music. The musical culinarist in me applauds Brahms's self-criticism. My thirst for more compositions despises him for it. 

[North Star]

Brahms's chamber music works are really a one big mystery. How can he keep that quality work after work after work?

By burning 85% of his compositions. 

Pretty much every published chamber music composition of his could IMO be argued to be a masterpiece. In fact in general his compositions are remarkably high-quality, even outside of chamber music. The musical culinarist in me applauds Brahms's self-criticism. My thirst for more compositions despises him for it. 

He must have burnt some very good pieces too, as some of his published works, like one of the Op. 76 piano pieces, were music he was about to burn but was persuaded not to by others. There must have been lots of string quartets and symphonies burning in the fireplace. 

[Jaakko Keskinen]

There must have been lots of string quartets and symphonies burning in the fireplace. 

I recall quote where he said that he composed and destroyed at least 20 string quartets before op. 51 and 67. He could have been exaggerating but then again it's Brahms we're talking about.

[Jo498]

Brahms was extremely scrupulous, but I wonder whether the rumors might be exaggerated. He supposedly destroyed a dozen or more string quartets but most of these would have been early works, many probably composed when he was around 20, not shortly before or between op.51 and 67. He published the original version of the B major trio which IMO is rough around the edges (e.g. the first movement is too long and meandering), so maybe he was more particular about string quartets. Or he might have been right not to publish them...

Then there are pieces with complicated histories that were originally planned as something else. Apparently what later became the piano quintet had been written out as a string quintet (which was destroyed).

But there were also some cases where friends like Clara Schumann or Joseph Joachim had seen a movement and liked it and Brahms burned it anyway (IIRC there was at least one trio movement completed for what would have been a sister piece to op.87 with this fate).

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Brahms's chamber music works are really a one big mystery. How can he keep that quality work after work after work? Pretty much every published chamber music composition of his could IMO be argued to be a masterpiece. In fact in general his compositions are remarkably high-quality, even outside of chamber music. The musical culinarist in me applauds Brahms's self-criticism. My thirst for more compositions despises him for it. 

I sympathize completely.  Though Brahms is my favorite composer and has been for many years, the damage he did extends far beyond listeners and fans; musicologists would very much like to compare the progression of his writing and in most cases, cannot.  As the destruction includes much of his correspondence, one is tempted to think that perhaps he's hiding something but after pondering this for well over a decade have concluded that in many ways he was a private person as well as an extremely fastidious one. 

[Madiel]

I tend to think he just didn't like the idea of people going over his earlier versions and reacting to them, including the risk that they'd prefer another version.

There are pop musicians who are the same now, who get rather upset about leaks when they're still working on an album and it's not the finished product.

I for one am perfectly happy with Brahms' attitude, because the material he did leave behind, for listening, is superb. And there's absolutely no obligation on a composer to leave behind material for future generations of musicologists to pick over like a pile of entrails.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

I tend to think he just didn't like the idea of people going over his earlier versions and reacting to them, including the risk that they'd prefer another version.

There are pop musicians who are the same now, who get rather upset about leaks when they're still working on an album and it's not the finished product.

I for one am perfectly happy with Brahms' attitude, because the material he did leave behind, for listening, is superb. And there's absolutely no obligation on a composer to leave behind material for future generations of musicologists to pick over like a pile of entrails.

Yours is a salutary view, orfeo, one I envy.  For myself, it seems to me that when you love someone, it's a natural thing to want to know more about them and it's clear that Johannes wanted to make certain we know as little about him - personally and 'compositionally' - as possible.  The latter seems esp. reprehensible as he himself loved orig. scores, collected them and mined them for instruction and inspiration.  His desire to be as opaque as possible was in my view excessive and likely indicative of psycho/social troubles of some persuasion.  Few other composers have touched me or moved me so consistently as he.  And yet no other composer I care about at any rate took such great pains to not share themselves with future listeners and admirers.         

[Madiel]

Chopin wanted his unpublished works destroyed at his death.

He was ignored. The musicologists can thank his friends and family for that, but Brahms is far from the only composer who didn't want things lying around.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Well, I'll tell you I'm not having any of it! I demand more respect from those tune twiddling twerps.  Where would composers be without us, their dear listeners?  Why, I should....

[Madiel]

Wow. I am absolutely loving the 2nd string quartet. So different from the 1st, even though they're both in minor keys. Op.51/1 was all tension and propulsion in the outer movements, but Op.51/2 is so lyrical!

[Purusha]

Brahms was extremely scrupulous, but I wonder whether the rumors might be exaggerated. He supposedly destroyed a dozen or more string quartets but most of these would have been early works, many probably composed when he was around 20, not shortly before or between op.51 and 67. He published the original version of the B major trio which IMO is rough around the edges (e.g. the first movement is too long and meandering), so maybe he was more particular about string quartets. Or he might have been right not to publish them...

Then there are pieces with complicated histories that were originally planned as something else. Apparently what later became the piano quintet had been written out as a string quintet (which was destroyed).

But there were also some cases where friends like Clara Schumann or Joseph Joachim had seen a movement and liked it and Brahms burned it anyway (IIRC there was at least one trio movement completed for what would have been a sister piece to op.87 with this fate).

This is probably true in the main but his unpublished piano trio is of very high quality (though not as great as any of his published trios), which makes one wonder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi0Tx0qM7QY

BTW, this popped while i was looking for the A major trio on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOGigsmyZUI

What is this? Certainly not by Brahms.

[Jo498]

I thought the authorship of the A major trio was still highly doubtful, does anyone know what the state of research is here?

[Mountain Goat]

BTW, this popped while i was looking for the A major trio on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOGigsmyZUI

What is this? Certainly not by Brahms.

That's the Schumann F major trio, which Brilliant Classics somehow managed to confuse with the posthumous A major trio. It's in their complete Brahms box and mislabelled as the A major.