Johannes Brahms (1833-1897)

Started by BachQ, April 07, 2007, 03:23:22 AM

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Madiel

It will probably come as no surprise that within the space of a few days I've gone from being slightly puzzled by op.100 to being enraptured by it.

Damn you, Brahms, for your sheer consistency of inspiration.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Jaakko Keskinen

Sometimes called "Meistersinger"-sonata because the very first notes sound like Morgenlich leuchtend im rosigen Schein"-song. Quite frankly, I didn't even notice the similarity until I heard about the nickname.

Although this is probably more often called "Thun-sonata".
"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

Madiel

Tonight I'm listening to, of course, Piano Trio No.3, op.101

And I've had my system of record-keeping long enough to tell me I haven't listened to this work for 5.5 years.  :o

There is just too much music to go round. Because there's certainly nothing about this that would have put me off listening. Every movement is quality, though I'm particularly taken with the hushed intensity of the 2nd movement, and the wilful refusal of the piano and strings to play with each other in much of the 3rd movement.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Karl Henning

Quote from: orfeo on June 13, 2015, 02:50:27 AM
Tonight I'm listening to, of course, Piano Trio No.3, op.101

And I've had my system of record-keeping long enough to tell me I haven't listened to this work for 5.5 years.  :o

Zowie!  I am not at all organized in my listening;  I admire those who are.

Quote from: orfeo on June 13, 2015, 02:50:27 AM
There is just too much music to go round.

And this is the most wonderful problem to have  8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Madiel

Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2015, 02:43:14 PM
Zowie!  I am not at all organized in my listening;  I admire those who are.

The reason I decided to keep a record was simply so I didn't listen to the same things all the time and never touch the furthest corners of my collection. For example, if I just relied on my occasional urge for some Brahms chamber music, I'd probably hit opp. 24, 25, 114 and 115 over and over. Not because I don't like the others, but because those are the ones I keep remembering I like.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Karl Henning

I understand.  I'm fairly good about stretching into the not-as-yet-known regions, but could be better  :)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Ken B

Quote from: orfeo on June 13, 2015, 03:13:15 PM
The reason I decided to keep a record was simply so I didn't listen to the same things all the time and never touch the furthest corners of my collection. For example, if I just relied on my occasional urge for some Brahms chamber music, I'd probably hit opp. 24, 25, 114 and 115 over and over. Not because I don't like the others, but because those are the ones I keep remembering I like.
The extent of my organization is to put a disc back in the box at the back of the box. But sometimes I cheat and don't play from the front.

Madiel

Today's stop on my chamber music tour, Violin Sonata No.3, op.108, is a momentous one. This is the last of the works to be brand new to me.

[asin]B00005QITM[/asin]

It didn't take long to confirm what I've been reading, which is that this a rather more extrovert work than the first two violin sonatas. I'm finding it very approachable, with strong and clear melodies. Some of which sound surprisingly modern to my ears for some reason, almost like I could find them in a pop song somewhere. A weird response, I know.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Jaakko Keskinen

Quote from: orfeo on June 24, 2015, 06:09:13 AM
almost like I could find them in a pop song somewhere. A weird response, I know.

I hear you. The opening melody of 3rd movement sounds like pop.
"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

jlaurson

Quote from: orfeo on June 24, 2015, 06:09:13 AM
Today's stop on my chamber music tour, Violin Sonata No.3, op.108, is a momentous one. This is the last of the works to be brand new to me.


It didn't take long to confirm what I've been reading, which is that this a rather more extrovert work than the first two violin sonatas. I'm finding it very approachable, with strong and clear melodies. Some of which sound surprisingly modern to my ears for some reason, almost like I could find them in a pop song somewhere. A weird response, I know.

One of the very best recordings of those works, too!!!

CRCulver

In the collection Messiaen Perspectives, Hugh McDonald makes the following comment: "But the French often have trouble appreciating Brahms (think of Lalo's horrified reaction to the Violin Concerto)."

Any idea what he is talking about? What did Lalo say about that work?

Jo498

IIRC the most famous reaction to the violin concerto was by Sarasate: When there finally appears a tune, the oboe has it. [i.e. the beginning of the slow movement]
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Scion7

Any idea what he is talking about? What did Lalo say about that work?

No idea - my bio's by MacDonald and Seigmeister don't mention it.  MacDonald quotes Hellmesberger as saying it was a concerto "not for, but against the violin."   :-)

It doesn't really matter, for there will always be the naysayers and folks that don't appreciate it - none of which has stopped its reputation as one of the three greatest violin concertos ever written, along with Beethoven's and Tchaikovsky's.
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Madiel

Google found me a snippet on the Sydney Symphony Orchestra website (from a concert including both composers) saying Lalo "didn't like Brahms at all", so clearly he is recorded as having said something negative.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

North Star

Quote from: orfeo on August 15, 2015, 04:51:58 AM
Google found me a snippet on the Sydney Symphony Orchestra website (from a concert including both composers) saying Lalo "didn't like Brahms at all", so clearly he is recorded as having said something negative.
Not to mention what Lalo is quoted to have written here (Composers on Music: Eight Centuries of Writings, ed. Josiah Fisk, Jeff William Nichols) (pp. 130-131).

There's a nice bit from Brahms's letter to Clara Schumann about the Bach Chaconne, too, on p. 134, followed by bits on Schumann to von Herzogenberg, and . . . on Die Meistersinger to Clara8)
Also most worthy of a reading is Tchaikovsky's review of Rakh 1st, p. 142.  :laugh:
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

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Scion7

Brahms and Tchaikovsky got along courteously if not warmly when they met, but neither one liked the other's music and style.  The descriptions of what they said seemed to be a game of one-upmanship. >:D
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Jo498

Brahms supposedly made very scathing remarks even about some composer's much closer to his style and tradition, e.g. Bruch. (Although I am not sure if some might have been made up. E.g. there is a German children/folk song "Fuchs, Du hast die Gans gestohlen" (Fox, you've stolen a goose) and Brahms apparently commented about a symphony by Robert Fuchs with "Fuchs, die hast Du ganz gestohlen" (Fuchs, you stole that one entirely).

The only major contemporary he seems to have been fond of, was Dvorak, but he also supported a fair number of unknowns composing in a traditional classicist style. But then Brahms apparently found most of his own work not good enough (compared to the likes of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert), supposedly destroyed dozens of works (including movements friends like Clara or Joachim had found pretty good, e.g. a trio begun parallel with op.87) so one would not expect him to be generous to others if he was so hypercritical of his own work.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

amw

#897
Clara (or Joachim?) actually liked the discarded E-flat major trio better than the Op. 87 trio as I recall, praising the second theme in particular. Brahms still got rid of it. Though I'm sure he reused any good bits in another composition later on; composers do that.

Brahms had high praise for Dvořák, Wagner (most of the time), and a few of the younger generation who met with his approval late in life (Schoenberg and Busoni, notably). His favourite contemporary composer however appeared to be Johann Strauss II.

Jaakko Keskinen

I recall reading (possibly false) anecdote that although Brahms seemed to detest Bruckner's symphonies, he actually went to his funeral, teary-eyed. It sounds fake but then again, this is Brahms we're talking about...
"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

Jo498

I believe we have very scathing remarks about Bruckner's music and personality in writing. I do not know whether the teary Brahms at either a concert with Bruckner's 8th or Bruckners funeral is made up or authentic.

Apparently, Brahms also thought that Berlioz and especially Liszt were hacks who lacked the very craft of musical composition. (So it is somewhat puzzling that he found nothing to admire in Bruckner's polylphonic craftsmanship).

I did not know that Brahms had known the young Schoenberg (although the unpublished string quartet of the latter does sound a lot like Brahms and Dvorak) at all.
There is an anecdote about him giving critical feedback to a string quintet of the young Zemlinsky (Brahms opened a volume of Mozart's string quintets and pointed out the voice leading in some passage to Zemlinsky and said: That's how you do that, from Bach to myself).

Apparently he had good things to say about the (rather Brahmsian) piano quintet of the young Ernst von Dohnanyi. There is a nice clarinet quartet (cl, piano, vl, vc) by some Walter Rabl (1873-1940, who seems to have quit composing in favor of teaching not much later) that also won a price from some jury Brahms was part of and Brahms recommended it for publication.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal