Stockhausen Festival at the South Bank Centre, London

[Al Moritz]

petrArch,

I see what you are saying, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion; mine is also just that -- an opinion.

You might try Mitttwochs-Gruss (CD 66); the rich, rather grainy sounds that Stockhausen and Perez-Abellan extract from the Kurzweil may surprise you. They certainly show that the composer's choices are not born from incompetence.

Cool system you have, BTW, and, it seems, a spacious listening place.

I am also a tube guy. My system, very different in character from yours:

Wadia 8 transport
Wadia 12 D/A converter
Audio Innovations Second Audio tube monoblocks
Ensemble Reference 'minimonitors'
2 Rel Storm III subwoofers (with internal amps)

Al

[petrarch]

You might try Mitttwochs-Gruss (CD 66)

Yes, Mittwoch is the only opera from Licht that I can listen to whole without cringing.

the rich, rather grainy sounds that Stockhausen and Perez-Abellan extract from the Kurzweil may surprise you. They certainly show that the composer's choices are not born from incompetence.

Oh I never claimed they were incompetent... complacent, perhaps, incompetent absolutely not (too much history that proves otherwise, although I am partly inclined to agree with Boulez when he says that Stockhausen stopped being interesting in the early 70s--too much LSD, I think the quote said).

[CRCulver]

I am partly inclined to agree with Boulez when he says that Stockhausen stopped being interesting in the early 70s--too much LSD, I think the quote said).

I always assumed that Stockhausen's madness was somehow caused by his 1968 hunger strike. It's after that that he became progressively more weird.

[petrarch]

More horseshit mythology. Sad how folks rather focus on that stuff, as opposed to dealing with his music on it's own terms.

You are ascribing focus where it is not due. Please give the benefit of intelligence to your interlocutors and the ability to take such quotes with a grain of salt. They are, however, historically relevant and valid rhetorical devices to illustrate a point. Whether they are exact or not is beside the point; after 1970 the ... rigor of Stockhausen's formalism was imbued with elements of a personal mythology that might not cater to everyone's tastes.

[petrarch]

Boulez is a blip next to him anyhow, and much much more static creatively.

This sounds like a Bach vs Beethoven comparison. I like Boulez as much as I like Stockhausen, with the bonus that his output in 2000 is consistently as good at it was in 1950.

[petrarch]

Nah the blanket stuff said earlier is all very much mythology, and is of course taken with a grain of salt...

...except for those things Stockhausen himself admitted. The liner notes for Aus den Sieben Tagen are a good read (re the 1968 personal re-evaluation).

Hardly, and whether you like him as much or not is besides the point...still doesn't change the fact that Boulez's reach, influence & output is much more static and narrow than that of Stockhausen. Believe it...

No contest about the output, if you merely count number of notes written in pieces of staff paper. As for the rest, Boulez's career as conductor, pedagogue and his IRCAM legacy are unequalled by Stockhausen. But, again, let's not have a Bach vs Beethoven debate.

[petrarch]

I'm not in the business of, nor would I waste time with vain attempts at, changing history. I am aware of both Boulez's and Stockhausen's output, influence and reach. I've met both, studied under a student of Stockhausen who also has Boulez as a key influence (what heresy!), and have (or have access to) much of the "many books etc" written by or about them. So, I really don't see this opposition you are (erroneously) reading from my words as more than a false dichotomy--famous words about output after 1970 notwithstanding. Other than historical fact, the rest of what I said was generously sprinkled with "in my opinion"s, but that seems to have had little effect in eliciting constructive responses.

[MDL]

Wow! James and petrArch, you guys really know your stuff. Fascinating stuff from both of you, although being a complete amateur, about 80 per cent of it goes straight over my head! 

[petrarch]

MDL what's your take, is there any good KS after 1970 or did the man's music become un-interesting because of too much LSD etc.? 

I already mentioned a few, but let me add a few more: Mantra, the rest of the Klavierstücke, Tierkreis. There are a number of others that escape me at the moment.

[Al Moritz]

Review:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/aug/03/proms.classicalmusicandopera2

Here is what the composer Richard Barrett wrote on the Radio 3 message boards:

"Cosmic Pulses - I made some comments here about the CD, but the experience of it in its full multichannel sound in such a huge space was totally convincing. A radical and challenging musical statement."

[Al Moritz]

Or it can be downloaded here:

http://rapidshare.com/files/134494667/Prom_20_2008_Stockhausen.zip

(courtesy Simon Smith over at rec.music.classical.contemporary)

(No Stimmung.)

[CRCulver]

While Stockhausen's influence is vast, and one could make the argument that it is greater that Boulez's, I for one am tired of that influence being exaggerated. Even though many prominent IDM musicians claim they never heard of the guy and, upon hearing his work, think it is rubbish, one too often hears the claim that Aphex Twin et al. looked to Stockhausen as a model. It's similar to the claims that Steve Reich is the father of house music, even though hackable drum machines are a more likely beginning.

Furthermore, while Stockhausen taught a great deal of composers, it's remarkable how many of them shrugged off any hint of his style in their own music, with e.g. Eotvos leaving behind his Stockhausen Ensemble sound and Rihm refusing to partake of any of it at all.

[Al Moritz]

Rihm says:

(http://www.sospeso.com/contents/articles/rihm_p1.html)

As from 1970, I paid regular visits to the Darmstadt summer courses. Of all the composers I met there, Stockhausen made the strongest impression, of course. I found his uncompromising nature refreshing. Of me, he seemed to be taking a view tinged with worry and benevolence. On one occasion, he sent me a note consisting of the following words and nothing else:

Dear Wolfgang Rihm,

Please only heed your inner voice.
With kindest regards.

Yours,
Karlheinz Stockhausen.

It hung for many years above my desk—until the green felt-tip had begun to fade. The words will never do so. His advice was decisive: that I should not heed the opinion of others but rather take the risk of embarking on my own path.

In 1972, after taking my final examinations at the secondary school and finishing my studies with Velte, I went to Cologne to work with Stockhausen. Although I only stayed for a short while, it was an enormously inspiring time. He never discussed the music of his pupils, only his own. But that was precisely the right thing to do, because that is how I could learn from him. He analyzed Momente throughout the term; we attended the rehearsals and the world premiere of the big new version. An experience like that leaves a lasting mark. However, it should not necessarily lead to imitation.

[petrarch]

The time of the Stockhausen influence on Rihm was 30+ years ago, and while it was indeed deep, it was more about the unwavering of the composer's intentions than technique or style. This in no way detracts from the value of the effect Stockhausen had on Rihm; I suppose that at some level (speaking from personal experience) investigating technique or style that aren't your own gives you tremendous insight and help shape your "language". If you follow Rihm's work, it is very far from Stockhausen, and by inspecting the typical literary influences, you can easily see they are quite incompatible. Another big influence on Rihm was Varèse--to the extent that some of Rihm's works are titled after movements or score annotations of Varèse.

[Al Moritz]

The time of the Stockhausen influence on Rihm was 30+ years ago, and while it was indeed deep, it was more about the unwavering of the composer's intentions than technique or style. This in no way detracts from the value of the effect Stockhausen had on Rihm; I suppose that at some level (speaking from personal experience) investigating technique or style that aren't your own gives you tremendous insight and help shape your "language". If you follow Rihm's work, it is very far from Stockhausen, and by inspecting the typical literary influences, you can easily see they are quite incompatible. Another big influence on Rihm was Varèse--to the extent that some of Rihm's works are titled after movements or score annotations of Varèse.

Agreed on all counts.

[Al Moritz]

I've never heard anything like it before...

Yes, that perpetual originality in Stockhausen's work is quite exceptional.

[Al Moritz]

Whether directly & indirectly, his influence is not exaggerated, it's very real and much greater than Boulez's work was or will ever be. Directly influencing musicians ranging from The Beatles? Frank Zappa? Miles Davis? Bjork? to many of his big name contemporaries (including Boulez) and beyond. He was far more creative than Boulez too. And I own all of Boulez's stuff and even like some of it, just saying...and Stockhausen's pioneering, successful & crucial work in electronic music alone set the stage not just for computerised art music but also for sampling techniques central to much of today's pop, rock, hip-hop & electronica. He had major impact on jazz as well, and clearly jazz had an impact him. But he did *LOTS* else on top of this too...we can only scratch the surface here..one of the big beasts of the 2nd half of the 20th, without a doubt. Even recently Boulez himself stated he felt that KS's work was the leading & main point of 2nd half of the 20th century and into the 21st will provide much interest for the future...

Not to contradict, but Anthèmes 2 for live solo violin and electronic delay, heard in 8-channel projection in Carnegie Hall in 2003, was one of most impressive live experiences I've ever had. Thank you, Mr. Boulez!

[petrarch]

Not to contradict, but Anthèmes 2 for live solo violin and electronic delay, heard in 8-channel projection in Carnegie Hall in 2003, was one of most impressive live experiences I've ever had. Thank you, Mr. Boulez!

You were there? I was too!

And at Dialogues de l'ombre double, Répons, Marteau, 12 Notations pour piano, ...

However, for sound projection nothing beats the live electronics of post-1980 Nono, IMHO.

[Al Moritz]

You were there? I was too!

Cool!

And at Dialogues de l'ombre double, Répons, Marteau, 12 Notations pour piano, ...

I only heard Répons, and it was very good, but the sound projection didn't add so much to the work for me, and the sound had less clarity than on CD (at least at the seat where I was, which was on the floor level).

However, for sound projection nothing beats the live electronics of post-1980 Nono, IMHO.

Aah, I would love to hear La Lontananza Nostalgica Utopica Futura for live solo violin and magnetic tape (layers of solo violin) in 8 channels -- even in 2 channel sound it is spectacular music.

[petrarch]

Aah, I would love to hear La Lontananza Nostalgica Utopica Futura for live solo violin and magnetic tape (layers of solo violin) in 8 channels -- even in 2 channel sound it is spectacular music.

It is going to be played in Salzburg this weekend, with Melise Mellinger on violin and Sciarrino projecting. I was planning to fit a week's vacation around that concert and go there (like I did for the UK premiere of Prometeo in May and Y entonces comprendió in Venice in 2005), but I am in the middle of moving to Boston and so I had to grudgingly postpone ... The best Nono live for me was Quando stanno morendo... it was breathtaking!