What's wrong with Rattle?

[Hector]

Where in the hell did I ever say we when stating my opinions?  Nowhere in hell, and nowhere on this site, either.  It is indeed a bad habit of yours to misrepresent and smear the individual stating his opinions, instead of discussing the opinion.

As a matter of fact, the topic of this thread is "What's wrong with Rattle," not "what's wrong with/do you like Rattle."  But the thread's author, Wanderer I believe he is, being rather more liberal than you, has not protested your attempts at highjacking it toward a "what's right with Rattle" homily.



In short, you don't care to communicate with people whose views differ from yours.  The presumption of intolerance that was placed on you must not have been merely... prejudicial.  
From what God like authority do you claim competence to decide whose views are unfounded and whose are not, without discussion, without argument, without evidence to the contrary?  

And how is it sociology to suggest that since the sixties people are more likely to have been raised on the Beatles than on Mozart?  This is an observation, or if you prefer, an hypothesis on the state of our culture, not on the state of our society.

On June 20, 1965, General Charles de Gaulle, President of the French Republic, went to a concert.  Was it a concert by the popular icon, Johnny Halliday?  Of course not!  It was the public premiere of Olivier Messiaen's Et Expecto Resurrectionem Mortuorum, played in the Cathedral of Chartres.  What a setting, what a composer, and what a public!

The current president, however - a gnome called Nicolas Sarkosy - never went to a concert of Olivier Messiaen's.  One of his closest friend, though, is... Johnny Halliday.  So close they are that Johnny Halliday has the president's personal cell number and is free to use it at any time.

The Messiaen piece was commissioned by the minister of Culture, Andre Malraux.  One of his Successors as Minister of Culture was Jack Lang, who had gained some notoriety as director of the Theatre de Nancy, where he had organized stagings of California style happenings.  Did Jack Lang commission a piece by Messiaen?  Hell no.  Did he commission a piece by Pierre Boulez?  Wrong again.  Did he at least commission a piece by Jean-Louis Florentz?  Not even him.  But he did provide government grants to French-style rappers, most of whom would otherwise have had to find themselves day time jobs as their recordings were not selling.

A generation ago the Prime Minister of France was a rotund economist called Raymond Barre, an opera buff.  The current Prime minister is a handsome and well-balanced politician called Francois Fillon.  Now, let me ask you something, Renfield. The photograph that stands on the chimney behind Fillon's desk in the Prime Minister's Office, is it a photograph of Fillon, his wife, and, say, George Pretre, after a representation of Les Pecheurs de Perles?  No Renfield, it isn't.  It is a photograph of Fillon, his wife, and... Mick Jagger, after a Rolling Stones concert at the Palais des Sports.  The Prime Minister, in an interview in Figaro Magazine, said his wife was particularly excited by the opportunity as she grew up a Stones fan, while he Francois Fillon grew up a Beatles man.

Other than that, my view that musical times have changed is... unfounded   

Simon Rattle is more likely to move those who have been raised on the Beatles, than on Mozart.  And that is the problem with him.

Such a shame as it was progressing quite well as a post and then you ruined it all with that the one line of tosh at the end.

What of those raised on both Beatles and Mozart and like and admire Rattle? Or had such a question never occurred to you?

[Renfield]

What of those raised on both Beatles and Mozart and like and admire Rattle? Or had such a question never occurred to you?

I think that pretty much sums up the reason for my irk, above.

[Bunny]

Sorry, are you saying Rattle performs Mozart in the style of the Beatles? 

No, I think the point is that Rattle performs -- no interprets Mozart in a manner to make him more accessible to a rock musician.  I've seen Rattle do Mozart, and Mozart is luckily bulletproof.  Not even Rattle's questionable choices can disguise the great classic lines.   

My biggest problem with Rattle is his mediocrity.  He was overrated by the British musical establishment for so long, and from such a young age, that he completely believes his own hype, and has been corrupted by it.  If you listen to an early recording by Rattle before you go to a concert, it becomes very apparent that he hasn't really gone back and reexamined anything.  For some reason in much of the repertoire he's stagnated.  That's a really serious problem.  If you are lucky enough to be at a performance when for some reason his interest has been piqued, then you can see something that's worthwhile.  Unfortunately, Rattle was at his most mediocre, or excruciatingly awful worst at the concerts I've attended.  That's the main problem with his Mozart performance, Beethoven performance, and sadly much of his Mahler performance as well.  If he wasn't included in my subscriptions, I don't think I would have bought any more tickets to his concerts, and I would have missed the DLVE with Quasthoff.  That performance was probably one of the best things he's ever done.  However, given the extremely high cost of BP tickets, I'm more tempted to skip his concerts which usually don't justify the cost.  I no longer buy any of his recordings after the Schubert 9th, which I found overrated by the favorable reviews, but considerably better than Hurwitz's scathing review.  Even at BMG prices, it wasn't worth the price of admission when there are truly great recordings of that work, and many other lesser recordings that are more interesting.

[Brian]

Simon Rattle is more likely to move those who have been raised on the Beatles, than on Mozart.  And that is the problem with him.

I was raised on Tito Puente. Does this mean I am more likely to be moved by Gustavo Dudamel?

[eyeresist]

I'm guessing you've never been to a "rave party" or seen someone on ecstasy (MDMA).

[M forever]

I no longer buy any of his recordings after the Schubert 9th, which I found overrated by the favorable reviews, but considerably better than Hurwitz's scathing review.

I couldn't figure out what he is doing there either. My general reaction to the recording was "huh?".

[Bunny]

I couldn't figure out what he is doing there either. My general reaction to the recording was "huh?".

Perhaps it was an anti-Schubert interpretation?  Whatever it is, it could not have been well thought out.

[kristopaivinen]

One of my early contacts with Rattle was Beethoven's symphonies, and I wasn't impressed beyond words, but his recordings of modern music seem very competent. I dare you folks to name a better Porgy and Bess.

[BorisG]

The GMG yes voters must have swayed Berlin.


Berlin Philharmonic Decides to Retain Simon Rattle Beyond 2012

By Catherine Hickley

April 25 (Bloomberg) -- The Berlin Philharmonic has decided to extend the contract of its chief conductor, 53-year-old Simon Rattle, beyond 2012, the orchestra said in a statement.

Details of the new contract, such as how long it will run, have yet to be discussed, Stefan Stahnke, the orchestra's spokesman, said in a telephone interview.

``This was the first step in the process,'' Stahnke said.

Rattle, who was born in Liverpool and studied at the Royal Academy of Music in London, has led the Berlin Philharmonic since 2002. He first conducted the orchestra in 1987.

Pamela Rosenberg, the 63-year-old director of the orchestra, has decided she won't stay in the post after her contract expires in 2010, the orchestra said earlier this week.

To contact the writer on this story: Catherine Hickley in Berlin at chickley@bloomberg.net.

Last Updated: April 25, 2008 12:51 EDT

[Renfield]

Ah, wonderful. I was hoping they'd renew his contract, I want to hear Beethoven from them on record.

Edit: "Them" = Rattle and the BPO. After how strangely the last cycle went, I'd really like to clarify what he intends in this music.

(And yes, I realise I am risking the Horrible Flames of Doom with this, but I'm not about to censor myself for that reason, either.)

[Greta]

I like Rattle a lot. I admire his quest for detail, his willingness to take risks, even if they don't work...I like his commitment to contemporary music and how he has furthered that in Berlin, I think he is an outstanding musician that gets an unfairly bad rap sometimes. I haven't had the pleasure to see him live yet though.

Like a few other conductors I can think of, when he's good he's great, fire and character and chemistry in abundance, but when he goes too far he gets extremely puzzling and lackluster.

And he is one who wants to present himself as well-rounded repertoire-wise, but I think he's not, his forte seems to be very late Romantic to the present. Everything I've heard from him that I've really felt worked falls into that category.

Excellent recordings include his Adams and Grainger with the CBSO, his Sibelius with the CBSO/Philharmonia (tone poems, 5th and 3rd come to mind first off). I like his Mahler generally a lot, I think his 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 10th are my favorites, still need to get his 8th which I have heard good things about.

Some of his early recordings are really worth looking out for, that appear on Operashare from time to time, I remember some early 80s Philharmonia that was quite impressive.

I think it's interesting that he kept up a long flirtation with a few American orchestras but never could be lured over here, CBSO was very lucky to have him for so long, and their success has got to be one of his greatest legacies. Their late recordings together became very, very good, the most notable live performance I have found being his farewell Mahler 2 that floats around, where he literally has the orchestra eating out of his hand, something that only comes out of long cultivation of mutual respect and trust with his musicians.

Great to hear about the extension of his Berlin contract, I think that relationship is really starting to cook. 

[Bonehelm]

I like Rattle a lot. I admire his quest for detail, his willingness to take risks, even if they don't work...I like his commitment to contemporary music and how he has furthered that in Berlin, I think he is an outstanding musician that gets an unfairly bad rap sometimes. I haven't had the pleasure to see him live yet though.

Like a few other conductors I can think of, when he's good he's great, fire and character and chemistry in abundance, but when he goes too far he gets extremely puzzling and lackluster.

And he is one who wants to present himself as well-rounded repertoire-wise, but I think he's not, his forte seems to be very late Romantic to the present. Everything I've heard from him that I've really felt worked falls into that category.

Excellent recordings include his Adams and Grainger with the CBSO, his Sibelius with the CBSO/Philharmonia (tone poems, 5th and 3rd come to mind first off). I like his Mahler generally a lot, I think his 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 10th are my favorites, still need to get his 8th which I have heard good things about.



Some of his early recordings are really worth looking out for, that appear on Operashare from time to time, I remember some early 80s Philharmonia that was quite impressive.

I think it's interesting that he kept up a long flirtation with a few American orchestras but never could be lured over here, CBSO was very lucky to have him for so long, and their success has got to be one of his greatest legacies. Their late recordings together became very, very good, the most notable live performance I have found being his farewell Mahler 2 that floats around, where he literally has the orchestra eating out of his hand, something that only comes out of long cultivation of mutual respect and trust with his musicians.

Great to hear about the extension of his Berlin contract, I think that relationship is really starting to cook. 

I remember you posting some YouTube links to his his farewell concert with the CBSO, and boy was that finale of M2 exhilarating. At the earth-shattering final climax Rattle leaned backwards with both his arms up in the air (like being hold at gunpoint by a police), and that was hilarious. Best part of the performance IMO.