Author Topic: Franz Schubert  (Read 85723 times)

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Offline Jo498

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #560 on: May 13, 2019, 10:27:59 AM »
The Decca recordings are older than DG? I think this older D 845 was in Diapason's Schubert piano box.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
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Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #561 on: May 13, 2019, 10:35:00 AM »
Anyone else who finds the sound improvement from CD to stereo Blu-ray marginal, at best?
I'm interested to go through the Kubelik Mahler, to see how it's there. But so far... the gains are small.

I downloaded one symphony (the 9th) as a lossless 24/96 FLAC and found it utterly indistinguishable from a rip of the original CD issue. There is a tiny amount of wiggle-room since the high-rez download (from Presto) was listed along side an LP release rather than the Blu-Ray edition. But it seems implausible that DG would make 2 distinct 24/96 masters of the Kubelik/Mahler. (Well, any argument based on the idea that a record label is not stupid is suspect.)

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8079268--mahler-10-symphonies

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #562 on: May 14, 2019, 12:19:57 AM »
I downloaded one symphony (the 9th) as a lossless 24/96 FLAC and found it utterly indistinguishable from a rip of the original CD issue. There is a tiny amount of wiggle-room since the high-rez download (from Presto) was listed along side an LP release rather than the Blu-Ray edition. But it seems implausible that DG would make 2 distinct 24/96 masters of the Kubelik/Mahler.

The thing is that any comparison, when the differences are so small, is pretty null and void, if I use the distinct DACs of two different machines to do comparative listening. What I should really be doing is route the digital signals of both, the CD player (Yamaha CD-S2100) and the the Blu-ray player (Cambridge CXU) to the same DAC. Technically I could route them both through the excellent DAC of the CD player ...but switching back and forth between the two signals would be cumbersome for any A/B comparison. (I'm thinking of getting a DAC with enough digital coax INputs which would solve that issue.)

Quote
(Well, any argument based on the idea that a record label is not stupid is suspect.)
Chortle.


I know it's not what you're asking but if you really want to hear Kempff play Schubert at his best, then this is what you have to get



Oy... another recording to explore. Up onto the wishlist it goes.

Online Mandryka

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #563 on: May 14, 2019, 12:32:48 AM »
The Decca recordings are older than DG? I think this older D 845 was in Diapason's Schubert piano box.

Which I don't know as well. It's the 960 which I think is sensational in the earlier recording, I can't recall either of his 845s. I'm listening to the earlier 845 as I type and I think it's wild -- interesting intense full of intense wild moments where he takes flight in a sort of elan of craziness. Do I go too far, I don't think so. If the late DG isn't like that then you NEED the earlier one. Great find.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 08:20:11 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #564 on: May 14, 2019, 05:52:40 AM »
To clarify: the Diapason D 845 is from 1953, so this is probably the Decca. It's almost the only Kempff in that box (D 899/3 is another). But these boxes seem to have been guided to a some extent by which recording one could include without paying hefty licensing fees. I don't know any of Kempff's DG Schubert.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Online Mandryka

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #565 on: May 14, 2019, 08:19:47 AM »
There's quite a lot of Kempff on Australian Eloquence, look

http://pianistdiscography.com/discography/pianistLabelDisplay.php?mediaType=0&PIANIST=25&labRichter=73

I've heard the Bach transcriptions and the Schubert both of which are excellent and superior IMO to his later DG recordings (except I haven't heard the later 845) I wonder if anyone's heard any of the other things.
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Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #566 on: May 14, 2019, 09:17:42 AM »
The thing is that any comparison, when the differences are so small, is pretty null and void, if I use the distinct DACs of two different machines to do comparative listening. What I should really be doing is route the digital signals of both, the CD player (Yamaha CD-S2100) and the the Blu-ray player (Cambridge CXU) to the same DAC. Technically I could route them both through the excellent DAC of the CD player ...but switching back and forth between the two signals would be cumbersome for any A/B comparison. (I'm thinking of getting a DAC with enough digital coax INputs which would solve that issue.)
Chortle.

Oy... another recording to explore. Up onto the wishlist it goes.

I have a SACD player which also has digital inputs and has a high resolution internal DAC (Marantz SA8004). I alternated playback of the two FLAC files, streamed by optical connection from a Mac. The screen of the SACD player displays 44.1 kHz and 96 kHz as I go from one program to the other so I know the data is being sent without being resampled by the computer. I found the two versions sounded indistinguishable.

From math/science arguments I don't expect high rez to be better (CD audio already exceeds the limits of human hearing). Mainly I wonder if they did a better job finding a cleaner analog source tape and/or transferring it with more skill. In this case the answer is no. For some other releases the newer master was clearly better. I originally had the Karajan/DG/Sibelius symphonies as released on CD in 1986. The later release had a more transparent sound. I seem to recall a subsequent release of Karajan's Metamorphosen had a more satisfying low-bass response. But mostly the glorified remasters don't sound much better, if at all.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 09:24:33 AM by Ghost of Baron Scarpia »

Online Mandryka

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #567 on: May 14, 2019, 10:03:36 AM »
Scarpia, weren't those sub standard ABQ downloads you had from presto? I mean they may not be a reliable site for judging sound quality.
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Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #568 on: May 14, 2019, 10:18:08 AM »
Scarpia, weren't those sub standard ABQ downloads you had from presto? I mean they may not be a reliable site for judging sound quality.

The ABQ downloads were bit-for-bit identical to rips I made from a CD, but were not identical to files you made available, which were rips from a later CD release. So yes, they seem to have substituted files from a nominally identical CD release from the same label, but there was no tampering or degradation involved.

I guess the question is, where did they get the 24/96 FLAC files? I assume the label released them in conjunction with the much hyped LP re-release. But you are justified in pointing out that there is no way to know if they are the same on the blu ray release. And the question is not easily answered, since Blu Ray is a closed encrypted format and there is no way to extract the raw audio data. (There are some Blu-Ray discs which contain FLAC files that can be copied using appropriate software, but apparently Universal does not use that convention in its blu ray audio discs.)

I got the high-rez files here:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8079268--mahler-10-symphonies

Offline ChopinBroccoli

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #569 on: July 20, 2019, 09:16:44 AM »
A pint-sized genius ... a melody writer of the first order... absolutely love his piano music... terrific symphonies ... I particularly love the Unfinished and the Great C Major ... wonderful Chamber music and a prolific writer of songs

Surely one of the true greats with an enormous catalogue despite his all too brief existence
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Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #570 on: January 24, 2020, 05:52:35 AM »
Has anyone been listening to Schubert lately? I have been getting back into his music this month, quite obsessively. There is so much beauty, intensity, poetry, warmth, and bleak sadness in his music. He appears to have been a very spontaneous kind of genius, as opposed to his idol, the more meticulous craftsman Beethoven. Somehow, I feel like Schubert’s music is simultaneously far ahead of its time and very of its time. Such a composer could have been born to no other place or era, but still I hear pre-echoes of the late Romantic and beyond, especially in some of his piano and chamber music.

But what I’ve been focusing more on has been the symphonies. I had never paid much attention to the early symphonies, but there is much joy and inventiveness there. The most interesting to me have been the 3rd and 4th symphonies. Very good both. I have been listening voraciously to the Roy Goodman/Hanover Band set and largely neglecting my other recordings on modern instruments. I should revisit the Blomstedt/Dresden set that I also have.

Next is the song cycles. I plan on listening to both Die schöne Müllerin and Winterreise each in its entirety before the winter ends, perhaps on the composer’s upcoming birthday. I have recently acquired the Fritz Wunderlich/Hubert Giesen and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau/Jörg Demus recordings, respectively. I also have the Shura Gehrman recordings of both cycles, but I don’t know WTF he was going for in either of them. A bizarre interpreter.

I want to explore the music for violin and piano—I’ve been looking at a Decca 2CD with Radu Lupu and Szymon Goldberg, any opinions? Is there a better alternative out there?

Anyone else as infatuated with Franz Schubert’s miraculous music as I have been lately?

Online Mandryka

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #571 on: January 25, 2020, 06:22:33 AM »
I’lltell you what I think you should hear, the second piano trio.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #572 on: January 25, 2020, 06:42:58 AM »
I’lltell you what I think you should hear, the second piano trio.

Both piano trios are excellent (my favorite is the first) but what everyone should hear is the Adagio in E flat, Op.posth. 148 D.897 "Notturno". I know you're very fond of compositions in which time seems to stand still --- well, this is the first historical example I'm aware of.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/xeNZwHKYAmk" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/xeNZwHKYAmk</a>
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Online Mandryka

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #573 on: January 25, 2020, 07:07:22 AM »

I want to explore the music for violin and piano—I’ve been looking at a Decca 2CD with Radu Lupu and Szymon Goldberg, any opinions? Is there a better alternative out there?


I can let you have a good transfer of the sonatinas with Oleg Kagan and Elizabeta Leonskaja if you want.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #574 on: January 25, 2020, 07:19:43 AM »
I want to explore the music for violin and piano—I’ve been looking at a Decca 2CD with Radu Lupu and Szymon Goldberg, any opinions? Is there a better alternative out there?

I have only one CD of that twofer and it's good. There are several equally good alternatives:



This 4-CD box has the added advantage that it contains everything Schubert wrote for violin, accompanied either by piano or orchestra (the latter works are absolutely charming and one of them is the closest Schubert got to writing a violin concerto). If you are a Schubert buff (like I am) this is hands down the best option.

For complete volin&piano only you can't go wrong with these:



(the 2nd disc contains a nice bonus: the Fantasy D940 for piano duet, which Julia Fischer delivers suprisingly good)

A historical recording with very good sound and cracking performances:



I have it as part of this:



There are other options as well but otomh the above are the top three.


)
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Online Mandryka

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #575 on: January 25, 2020, 07:23:05 AM »
Schubert's string quartets

I've never heard them apart from Death and the Maiden, the big G major and the Rosamunde. I find all of three of them really challenging, though the last one, the G major, exerts a certain fascination.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 07:24:52 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #576 on: January 25, 2020, 07:32:49 AM »
I’lltell you what I think you should hear, the second piano trio.

You're right. I should return to this work ASAP. I have the disc with Immerseel, Beths and Bylsma (RIP) and I like it a lot but haven't heard it in some time.

@Florestan, that Notturno was incredible. Wow!! Do you think the Beaux Arts is the one to get? I have mixed feelings about their work. I see the Florestan Trio have also recorded it. Do you have any feelings for the recordings of this group, aside from your shared namesake?

Offline Jo498

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #577 on: January 25, 2020, 09:14:28 AM »
Top chamber music for me is the string quintet and the G major quartet. Then the other "late" (d minor, a minor, c minor Quartettsatz) quartets, the two piano trios (+ notturno) and the violin fantasy. Then the octet and the "arpeggione (nowadays usually 'cello) sonata. The "trout" and the earlier violin sonatas/sonatinas are "lighter" but delightful. The early string quartets (they are all really early works by the teenaged Schubert) are not as essential.

Often overlooked is the four-hand piano music. The deservedly most famous piece is the f minor fantasy. The C major Grand Duo, the a minor "Lebensstürme" + A major Rondo and the hungarian and french divertimenti are also major works.

Of the songs there are too many outside the cycles to mention them, if new, it's not the worst strategy to go with the most frequently anthologized (Erlkönig, An die Musik, Gretchen, etc.) And while "Schwanengesang" is not really a cycle compared with Winterreise und Muellerin, it is of course essential listening. And with "Der Doppelgaenger" being probably the most daring of all, and "Ständchen" and "Taubenpost" two of the most charming it really shows the breadth of the Schubert-Lieder-World.

Finally, if you don't know them, listen to "Nachtgesang im Walde" and "Gesang der Geister über den Wassern", the apex of his secular choral music (that also contains some pretty forgettable beer hall stuff)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Florestan

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #578 on: January 25, 2020, 09:22:33 AM »
@Florestan, that Notturno was incredible. Wow!!

Ain't it? That was my own reaction when I first heard it. Pure poetry concentrated in less than 10 minutes of music of deceptive simplicity. Imo only Chopin and Schumann can hold a candle to Schubert in this respect.

Quote
Do you think the Beaux Arts is the one to get? I have mixed feelings about their work. I see the Florestan Trio have also recorded it. Do you have any feelings for the recordings of this group, aside from your shared namesake?

This is a piece where one recording only will not do. The BAT is very good (the sound on YT does not do them justice) but the Florestan is better imo. I also have versions by the Wanderer Trio and the Elegiaque Trio which are both worth hearing but bottom line I'd say that the Florestans get the first prize --- and not because I have any a priori preference to them.

If anyone knows other good performances of this gem please let me / us know.
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Offline Jo498

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #579 on: January 25, 2020, 10:06:22 AM »
There was an early HIP effort in the 1970s by Demus and members of the Collegium aureum with chamber music by Schubert etc. Only the "Trout" and the Notturno appeared on CD, I believe, but they are both extraordinarily good. Nowadays probably only in harmonia mundi's German Romanticism box. This seems still available and while I have not heard the Freischütz, of the rest I consider the Ameling and Pregardien discs as essential as the Trout just mentioned and the sonatas with Demus and Winterreise with Schopper also pretty good. In any case for $20 or less, it is well worth the price, even if one wants only two or three discs of 10.



Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)