Franz Schubert

Started by Paul-Michel, April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM

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André

#480
Great work, Jens !

I know 12 of these sets and a few singles from 4-5 others. The one I'm curious about is Hans Graf in Denmark. It's very pricey, though  :-X

Que

I was one of the 1st here that got hooked on the Van Immerseel cycle (back then still on Sony).
And it still leaves little to be desired - it is even on period instruments... 8)

I recall getting into discussions with M forever  (on the old forum) on the added value of a period performance.
He was interested - I scanned the booklets with Van Immerseel's comments for him - but instinctively suspicious of any Romantic repertoire (debatable, in Schubert's case) that was not performed by the Wiener Philharmoniker under Sinopoli....  ;)

Q

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Que on December 31, 2018, 01:36:15 AM
I was one of the 1st here that got hooked on the Van Immerseel cycle (back then still on Sony).
And it still leaves little to be desired - it is even on period instruments... 8)

I recall getting into discussions with M forever  (on the old forum) on the added value of a period performance.
He was interested - I scanned the booklets with Van Immerseel's comments for him - but instinctively suspicious of any Romantic repertoire (debatable, in Schubert's case) that was not performed by the Wiener Philharmoniker under Sinopoli....  ;)

Q

;D

Yes, Immerseel holds up VERY well. (And so does Brueggen.)

Cato

A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   ;)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 07:16:18 AM
A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   ;)

Well, yes and no, is my opinion. I've bloviated similarly on past occasions, suggesting more specifically that if Schubert had continued to compose -- for as many years as he would have had to live had only he reached the age of Ludwig or some other reasonable older age -- at the level at which he composed in his last two years before his death, then we would mention Schubert's name before those of Beethoven and Mozart.

But this pointless if droll conjecture -- really only meant to highlight just how great late Schubert's compositions are -- is kept in check by the fact that knowing of his impending doom certainly or at least probably added that quality to it that made it, in part, so great.

Florestan

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 07:16:18 AM
A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   ;)

I greatly beware of such pronouncements --- what I know is that 30 years ago Beethoven was by far my favorite composer, while today (1) Schubert is in my top 3 (together with Mozart and Chopin), and (2) Beethoven makes it to my top 10 in whatever combination I can think of it. Desert island utopias be damned, I wouldn't part with any of them.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Cato

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 07:41:00 AM
Well, yes and no, is my opinion. I've bloviated similarly on past occasions, suggesting more specifically that if Schubert had continued to compose -- for as many years as he would have had to live had only he reached the age of Ludwig or some other reasonable older age -- at the level at which he composed in his last two years before his death, then we would mention Schubert's name before those of Beethoven and Mozart.

But this pointless if droll conjecture -- really only meant to highlight just how great late Schubert's compositions are -- is kept in check by the fact that knowing of his impending doom certainly or at least probably added that quality to it that made it, in part, so great.

Yes, the influence of that aspect is not to be discounted.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Florestan

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 07:41:00 AM
Well, yes and no, is my opinion. I've bloviated similarly on past occasions, suggesting more specifically that if Schubert had continued to compose -- for as many years as he would have had to live had only he reached the age of Ludwig or some other reasonable older age -- at the level at which he composed in his last two years before his death, then we would mention Schubert's name before those of Beethoven and Mozart.

But this pointless if droll conjecture -- really only meant to highlight just how great late Schubert's compositions are -- is kept in check by the fact that knowing of his impending doom certainly or at least probably added that quality to it that made it, in part, so great.

You mean, we knowing of it, or Schubert knowing of it? The former is post factum, the latter is more myth than reality.  :laugh:
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 07:50:53 AM
You mean, we knowing of it, or Schubert knowing of it? The former is post factum, the latter is more myth than reality.  :laugh:

I mean Schubert knowing it, of course.

Florestan

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 07:56:59 AM
I mean Schubert knowing it, of course.

Well, he didn't quite know it until the very end.  ;D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 07:59:05 AM
Well, he didn't quite know it until the very end.  ;D

Oh, no. It was quite clear for him that he carried a death sentence within him for quite a while. Why would you suggest that he didn't know until the very end?

Brian

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 07:41:00 AMthat knowing of his impending doom certainly or at least probably added that quality to it that made it, in part, so great.

How sadistic and torturous would it be to wish upon him 30 extra years of life, all lived in similar doom-laden misery?  ;D

Jo498

He could not expect to live to a very old age with syphilis. But he could hardly expect to die in his early 30s. It is all the more tragic as he was apparently only a few months away before establishing himself more firmly with public concerts that would have improved his economic situation etc.

On the other hand, I cannot completely deny the attractiveness of the somewhat esoteric idea that Schubert accomplished almost as much in 31 years than he would have in a longer timespan. (Even Alfred Einstein thinks along similar lines in a little book of his, "Größe in der Musik" (Greatness in Music).
Apart from such a form of artistic predestination we should not neglect that there are very real cases of composers "stagnating" at a fairly early age, Rossini being the most famous example. Even for Schumann and Mendelssohn we could plausibly say that they "stagnated" (on a very high level they had reached rather early).

Of course, it is pure speculation that Schubert could have "pulled a Rossini". But so is the idea that he would have certainly and completely overshadowed and outclassed most other music of the 1830s-50s, had he lived into his mid/late 50s.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Florestan

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 08:15:36 AM
Oh, no. It was quite clear for him that he carried a death sentence within him for quite a while. Why would you suggest that he didn't know until the very end?

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/schubert%E2%80%99s-final-year
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Brahmsian

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 07:16:18 AM
A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   ;)

We will never know, will we?   :)  He (Schubert) was definitely trending in that direction.

Cato

Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 08:44:05 AM
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/schubert%E2%80%99s-final-year

Very interesting article!  I find the remarks on the last Missa especially intriguing.

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 04, 2019, 09:15:48 AM
We will never know, will we?   :)  He (Schubert) was definitely trending in that direction.

Eighteen symphonies?  Perhaps violin and piano concertos?  Aye, we will never know.  Syphilis must have its way.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Jo498 on January 04, 2019, 08:36:33 AM
He could not expect to live to a very old age with syphilis. But he could hardly expect to die in his early 30s. It is all the more tragic as he was apparently only a few months away before establishing himself more firmly with public concerts that would have improved his economic situation etc.

On the other hand, I cannot completely deny the attractiveness of the somewhat esoteric idea that Schubert accomplished almost as much in 31 years than he would have in a longer timespan. (Even Alfred Einstein thinks along similar lines in a little book of his, "Größe in der Musik" (Greatness in Music).
Apart from such a form of artistic predestination we should not neglect that there are very real cases of composers "stagnating" at a fairly early age, Rossini being the most famous example. Even for Schumann and Mendelssohn we could plausibly say that they "stagnated" (on a very high level they had reached rather early).

Of course, it is pure speculation that Schubert could have "pulled a Rossini". But so is the idea that he would have certainly and completely overshadowed and outclassed most other music of the 1830s-50s, had he lived into his mid/late 50s.

"....pulled a Rossini" is one of the funnier phrases I've read lately.

I would argue that late Schumann is not stagnation but in fact a reaching of new levels of composition. What sublime music flowed from his pen that he had hitherto not come close to. And while I can appreciate the argument as regards Mendelssohn, I don't agree with that one, either, given such works as the op.80 string quartet (1847), the 2nd string quintet (1845), Symphonies 2, 3, 4 (1840-44), VC (1844), Elijah (1846) or Psalm 100 (1842) -- all composed in his last 7 years... above the ripe old age of 31. :-)


Quote from: Florestan on January 04, 2019, 08:44:05 AM
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/schubert%E2%80%99s-final-year

Are you basing this off just this line: "But until the illnesses of their final weeks, neither composer could have suspected that death was imminent." (I've not read beyond, I'm afraid but lazy enough to admit.)

Syphillis was a death sentence back then; there was no doubting he wasn't aware of the disease; the question of whether he was aware of the absolute proximity and imminence of his death or just its impendation (it's a word now, if it wasn't), is not super relevant, to my asserting that having your mortality impressed upon you in no uncertain, reasonably proximate ways must change the way you think, act, perceive, compose.

Brahmsian

Quote from: Cato on January 04, 2019, 09:27:33 AM

Eighteen symphonies?  Perhaps violin and piano concertos?  Aye, we will never know.  Syphilis must have its way.

Without question I think there would have been concerti in the future.  Perhaps another dozen piano sonatas as well?  :-\

Florestan

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 04, 2019, 09:29:07 AM
"....pulled a Rossini" is one of the funnier phrases I've read lately.

I would argue that late Schumann is not stagnation but in fact a reaching of new levels of composition. What sublime music flowed from his pen that he had hitherto not come close to. And while I can appreciate the argument as regards Mendelssohn, I don't agree with that one, either, given such works as the op.80 string quartet (1847), the 2nd string quintet (1845), Symphonies 2, 3, 4 (1840-44), VC (1844), Elijah (1846) or Psalm 100 (1842) -- all composed in his last 7 years... above the ripe old age of 31. :-)


Are you basing this off just this line: "But until the illnesses of their final weeks, neither composer could have suspected that death was imminent." (I've not read beyond, I'm afraid but lazy enough to admit.)

Read further.

Quotehaving your mortality impressed upon you in no uncertain, reasonably proximate ways must change the way you think, act, perceive, compose.

Yes, precisely, but I doubt that knowing you have only 6 months yet to live makes one, genius or not, compose some of the greatest masterpieces of Western music --- a death sentence like that is more likely than not to paralyze, not boost, your faculties. Where to start? What to begin composing? What to finish? And will you have the time to do it? And does it matter at all? No, really, if you think of it it is quite impossible that such a situation resulted in one of the most creative outbursts in the whole history of Western art.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

Syphillis is speculation, along with typhoid and any number of afflictions attributed to Schubert, such as mercury poisoning. I get the impression that being convinced you are dying was common in those days, when understanding of disease was minimal and anyone could drop dead of an infection from a scratch or food poisoning at any time. Any minor ailment could prompt your doctor to bleed you to death or give you a dangerously poisonous medicine.

But, by all means, continue the speculation. I think Schubert's 17th symphony would have anticipated Schoenberg's Verkarte Nacht.