Franz Schubert

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Read further.

I got to: "...though as a syphilitic he would have known that he was unlikely to reach middle (let alone old) age." :-)

As to paralyzation vs. inspiration... now that's speculation! 

[Florestan]

I got to: "...though as a syphilitic he would have known that he was unlikely to reach middle (let alone old) age." :-)

Well, what was the (average) middle or old age back in 1828 Vienna? I doubt it was 50, or 80 something as it is now.   

Be it as it may, I am perfectly happy with what Schubert did compose, which is enough to occupy my listening time for a few years exclusively. What he might have composed we'll never know and therefore I'm not interested in. The same goes for Beethoven.

[bwv 1080]

A local classical radio station was (again!) offering the Unfinished Symphony and the disc jockey, apparently because he thought he had to do something additional to earn his keep, offered the claim that, if Schubert had lived to the same age as Beethoven (i.e. 56 years), he would be considered greater than Beethoven.

Any opinions?   

No doubt, if Schubert had lived to 56 that we would have had full integral Serialism in his late works, and possibly he even would have invented Hip-Hop

[Cato]

Concerning Rossini: he lived another 37 years to age 76 after he stopped composing operas.  Speculation about bipolar disorder, or depression about his mother's death, etc. etc. have been bandied about.  Gonorrhea, rather than syphilis, seems to have been his particular venereal disease, which might have been involved in his "retirement" from opera.  To be sure, after the gonorrhea seemed to have gone into remission (How?  Natural strengthening of his immune system?), he did start composing again, but not operas.


https://books.google.com/books?id=mcEiihJ5p9MC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=Rossini+%2B+gonorrhea&source=bl&ots=be-_Ei0gFU&sig=IWI6qbxWYKfSPTvrF2Q0cEH0wlY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCtbDa79TfAhWTxIMKHbfNDN4Q6AEwDXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=Rossini%20%2B%20gonorrhea&f=false

Syphilis and Schubert ?  Possibly he never had it, but was misdiagnosed, and was poisoned by the medicines of the day.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Well, what was the (average) middle or old age back in 1828 Vienna? I doubt it was 50, or 80 something as it is now.   

Old age was approx. the same. Middle and average age were WILDLY below what we have today.

[bwv 1080]

Old age was approx. the same. Middle and average age were WILDLY below what we have today.

Life expectancy of a 30 year old was 34 years in 1850 and is currently about 48 years - so some significant improvement but nothing like the reduction in life expectancy at birth, which was driven by the fall in childhood mortality

https://www.infoplease.com/us/mortality/life-expectancy-age-1850-2011

[Florestan]

Concerning Rossini: he lived another 37 years to age 76 after he stopped composing operas.  Speculation about bipolar disorder, or depression about his mother's death, etc. etc. have been bandied about.  Gonorrhea, rather than syphilis, seems to have been his particular venereal disease, which might have been involved in his "retirement" from opera.  To be sure, after the gonorrhea seemed to have gone into remission (How?  Natural strengthening of his immune system?), he did start composing again, but not operas.

I think Rossini's case was much simpler than the critics have made of it. He simply made enough money from his career to be able to live at ease in Paris without the hustle and bustle of an operatic composer back then. I know that this goes completely against the Romantic image / myth of what an artist is / should be, but it might --- just might --- be true. And I think that were it true it would add to, not subtract from, his genius. Not to mention that his late piano works are a treasure trove of witty tunefulness stemming from an aesthetic position wich imho adumbrate Satie.

[Jo498]

Other famous artists in teh 19th century who were suffering from syphilis often lived into their 40s or 50s although in many cases the last years were not pleasant.

[Brian]

the hustle and bustle of an operatic composer back then.

And Rossini's composing life was famously intense - he would write an opera in a crazily short amount of time, mostly at 3 a.m., while partying harder and longer than most college students do today. It's little wonder he achieved burnout once he reached the age where your hangovers start getting worse!

[Mandryka]

In Mann's Faustus there's a composer who knowingly, sleeps with a syphilitic prostitute to catch the disease, he thinks that it will improve his music.

[Jo498]

It seems that at least some of the composers who wrote very quickly had at least a tendency towards what we would called bipolar disorder today. Then there is substance abuse; amounts of alcohol we would consider highly problematic were often fairly normal. Then often venereal disease or other chronic illnesses. It is hardly surprising that in several cases such factors led to highly intense but short lives or breakdowns at a fairly early age. I read that Rossini suffered from burnout and depression and when he recovered he did compose again, just not operas.
I don't think there are obvious indications that Schubert would have had a similar fate had he lived another 20-25 years. But it seems also premature to assume that he would have sustained anything close to the exponential development of ca. 1822-28.

[Florestan]

amounts of alcohol we would consider highly problematic were often fairly normal.

Yes, but we have to consider two things:

(1), given the sanitation state back then in the early 19th century Europe, drinking wine or beer was much more healthy than drinking water,

and

(2), nulla placere diu nec vivere carmina possunt quæ scribuntur aquæ potoribus --- Horace.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Yes, but we have to consider two things:

(1), given the sanitation state back then in the early 19th century Europe, drinking wine or beer was much more healthy than drinking water,

Doesn't drinking wine/beer/hard stuff dehydrate you some more? You would still need water wouldn't you?

[Florestan]

Doesn't drinking wine/beer/hard stuff dehydrate you some more? You would still need water wouldn't you?

Yes, and it's by drinking water that one got all sort of diseases back then --- hence the popular Romanian saying that "water is no good, not even in one's boots!" 

And how about the Horace quote? You seem to have missed it --- on purpose, I wonder?   

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Doesn't drinking wine/beer/hard stuff dehydrate you some more? You would still need water wouldn't you?

I'm not sure that is necessarily correct. I was under the impression that there is plenty water in these drinks that even those that have diuretic qualities (coffee, champagne, alcohol in general et al.) will supply the body with more water than it taketh out of it. You'll just be drunk at some point. But we should also realize that esp. beer back then was a lot weaker than it is, on average, today... being mostly small beer.

[Jo498]

I didn't mean to imply that they were all drunkards and usually slightly tipsy. Although this was certainly often the case. My point was more that "live fast, die young" was a) not invented by Jim Morrison b) in an age with a far higher mortality rate in young and middle age, lots of chronic diseases without good treatment, precarious economic conditions even for artists who had themselves established in the middle class (one or two failures or changes of fashion away from poverty, cf. Vivaldi or Joh. Chr. Bach at the end of their lives) not even such a bad "strategy".

[PerfectWagnerite]

I'm not sure that is necessarily correct. I was under the impression that there is plenty water in these drinks that even those that have diuretic qualities (coffee, champagne, alcohol in general et al.) will supply the body with more water than it taketh out of it. You'll just be drunk at some point. But we should also realize that esp. beer back then was a lot weaker than it is, on average, today... being mostly small beer.

A lot weaker? Beer in the U.S. is around 5% alcohol.

Yes, and it's by drinking water that one got all sort of diseases back then --- hence the popular Romanian saying that "water is no good, not even in one's boots!" 

And how about the Horace quote? You seem to have missed it --- on purpose, I wonder?   

Oh I missed that quote on first reading. Is the translation more or less correct?

No poems written by water-drinkers can be long popular or live long

[Cato]

Oh I missed that quote on first reading. Is the translation more or less correct?

No poems written by water-drinkers can be long popular or live long

Yes, it is fine!

[Mandryka]

interesting essay here on playing the piano sonatas

http://www.posgrado.unam.mx/musica/lecturas/historiaInterpretacion/JSTOR/Bilson-Schubert.pdf

[Jo498]

"small beer" was usually around 1% alcohol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer
And wine was often diluted.
Still, Goethe apparently drank like two bottles of wine a day and lived a highly productive life of 82 years.