Franz Schubert

Started by Paul-Michel, April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM

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André

I tend to prefer the first movement of D960 played at a flowing tempo. My first disc was the Curzon interpretation on Decca and I still like it. Orozco, Eschenbach and Cooper are superb in the work. I'm not convinced by very slow interpretations, especially if the pianist opts to take the repeat.

The fastest First movement I've come across is from Eduard Erdmann (the composer - he was also a concert pianist). It kind it unsettles the listener at first, but it works.

Brian

This morning, inspired by this discussion, I put on Dejan Lazic's excellent D. 960 (first movement: 20:22), and my girlfriend came into the living room after 7 minutes to pronounce it "a good CD." So, it has that stamp of approval going for it!

Todd

Quote from: Brian on February 17, 2019, 01:08:28 PM
This morning, inspired by this discussion, I put on Dejan Lazic's excellent D. 960 (first movement: 20:22), and my girlfriend came into the living room after 7 minutes to pronounce it "a good CD." So, it has that stamp of approval going for it!


That, sir, is a very good CD.  Make sure to rip it and keep a copy backed up online for safekeeping.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

amw

Quote from: Brian on February 17, 2019, 01:08:28 PM
This morning, inspired by this discussion, I put on Dejan Lazic's excellent D. 960 (first movement: 20:22), and my girlfriend came into the living room after 7 minutes to pronounce it "a good CD." So, it has that stamp of approval going for it!
I haven't heard that one but based on listening to 1:55 of it, it's probably going to be good, yes. Although based on a similar amount of time the Rafael Orozco recording recommended above is less smoothly played but more my thing (first movement: 19:18).

I guess I prefer first movements that avoid any kind of calmness or "sameness" & especially that exploit the differences between p, pp & ppp.

Mandryka

#544
Quote from: amw on February 18, 2019, 12:25:31 AM


I guess I prefer first movements that avoid any kind of calmness or "sameness" & especially that exploit the differences between p, pp & ppp.

I think it's not a coincidence that Hamelin has recorded both Feldman and Schubert. I'm interested in the idea that in the C19 there should have been a composer who was exploring stillness and homogeneity -- at least that seems to be one way of making sense of some of his music. 
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

amw

Well I am actually quite enjoying the Aki Takahashi recording (first movement timing 23:16)—slow but not like a warm bubble bath, instead filled with tension and expectation. Also accompanied by a very noisy bird outside on my balcony.

Rinaldo

Quote from: amw on February 21, 2019, 06:46:50 PM
Well I am actually quite enjoying the Aki Takahashi recording (first movement timing 23:16)—slow but not like a warm bubble bath, instead filled with tension and expectation. Also accompanied by a very noisy bird outside on my balcony.

Damn, didn't realize she recorded Schubert as well. I've listened to a few samples and now I wish I had the budget to hunt for the discs. At least the birds are free.

Mandryka

#547
Quote from: Morton Feldman possibly here http://www.cnvill.net/mfdarmstadt1984.pdfWhen we had the rehearsal in Toronto [for the
premiere of the String Quartet No. 2], and I walked in, and I wanted to convey the mood of the
piece to the musicians I said to the marvellous Kronos Quartet, 'Well', I said to them, 'play it like
Death and the Maiden.'15 And they played. That's it. That kind of hovering, as if you're in a
register you'd never heard before. That's one of the magics of Schubert.

I just listened for three minutes max to 960  Aki Takahashi and thought that she was too aggressive, too noisy, too much drive. And then I listened to three minutes max to Hamelin in the same piece and thought how nuanced and embellished it is.

And I think I've just bought a Krell amp.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

amw

Quote from: Mandryka on February 26, 2019, 08:04:48 AM
I just listened for three minutes max to 960  Aki Takahashi and thought that she was too aggressive, too noisy, too much drive.
That's probably what I liked about it!

I re-listened to the Hamelin & did not find it particularly Feldmanesque—it didn't have that kind of stillness or sense of suspended time, in part because of Hamelin's frequent micro tempo fluctuations & ritardandi on individual notes. I would characterise it as languid and hazy, maybe a bit Scriabinesque.

This reminded me I should revisit the Michael Korstick recording though.

Mandryka

Quote from: amw on March 02, 2019, 01:09:38 AM

I re-listened to the Hamelin & did not find it particularly Feldmanesque—it didn't have that kind of stillness or sense of suspended time, in part because of Hamelin's frequent micro tempo fluctuations & ritardandi on individual notes. I would characterise it as languid and hazy, maybe a bit Scriabinesque.



Too subtle for me.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

amw

#550
Kind of a perfumed, sensuous, humid, air laden with spices, shaded courtyard on a hot day, distant fountains, maybe Jalal ad-Din Rumi is there, interpretation—at least as I heard it.

I thought of Korstick because Feldman requires pretty close to absolute metrical precision (and that's how Hamelin himself performs For Bunita Marcus), and Korstick definitely has the same approach in his recording, which is 25:34 in the first movement. I turned it off after a while partly because his louder playing always comes close to hammering (this is also something that happens often in Feldman performance to be fair, but Feldman has much fewer loud bits, and he generally does mark them fff) and mostly just because it was too slow and I lost interest.

Lars Vogt (22:55) has a similar Feldmanesque approach, a bit faster, definitely quieter, & more to my taste. Or at least I did lose track of time whilst listening which is also what tends to happen w Feldman.

Also happened to notice Khatia Buniatishvili is coming out with a D960 on March 15th with a 14 1/2 minute slow movement (others being of standard duration). I may be tempted.

Mandryka

Quote from: amw on March 02, 2019, 02:44:05 AM
Kind of a perfumed, sensuous, humid, air laden with spices, shaded courtyard on a hot day, distant fountains, maybe Jalal ad-Din Rumi is there, interpretation—at least as I heard it.


Oh yes, when you said Scriabin I thought of vers la flamme!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

I'm listening to Korstick play the first movement now. There's like, no rubato! There's a Schubert trio recording that I dipped into -- the second -- which is a bit like that.

I wonder if he does the same in Debussy and Beethoven. Has he recorded Chopin.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

amw

#553
Well you can't really do rubato in Feldman, the music is full of rhythmic patterns that have to be executed very precisely.



I think the feldmanesque precision is intentional (and also reminiscent of the first Afanassiev recording, which is even slower) as his Beethoven and Schumann are definitely less metronomic. (I've never been interested to hear Korstick's Debussy.) Of course the problem with trying to interpret Schubert like Feldman is that Schubert's rhythms have no intrinsic interest of their own & are very often just a pulsation sustaining a particular note or chord. You might have better luck interpreting Schubert as though it were Éliane Radigue.

As I recall I actually did find the first Afanassiev recording listenable (28:25 / 12:44 / 5:09 / 10:21) but never acquired it because he takes the same approach with D959 (19:41 / 12:10 / 6:34 / 13:58), which can't handle it, and D958 (13:20 / 11:02 / 4:27 / 11:22), which really can't handle it.

Mandryka

Someone called Robert Orledge wrote an essay for the Debussy etudes CD (which I'm listening to) saying this

QuoteOnce again, Michael Korstick shows us that
the primary requirement for revealing Debussy's challenging piano music at its best is
to keep exactly to what the composer wrote,
for even his untidiest looking sketches reveal
an extreme precision with detail.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

the primary requirement for revealing Debussy's challenging piano music at its best is
to keep exactly to what the composer wrote,


Is it?

First, Debussy himself did not keep exactly to what he wrote.

Second, he asked a pianist whose name I can't remember otomh but who was a commited Debussy-ian why he played one of his (Debussy's, that is) works in a certain way; the pianist answered "That's how I felt I should play it"; Debussy replied "I feel differently, but by all means, keep playing it your way!"

We've had this discussion before, in the HIP thread.  :D

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mandryka

Quote from: amw on March 02, 2019, 01:09:38 AM
That's probably what I liked about it!

I re-listened to the Hamelin & did not find it particularly Feldmanesque—it didn't have that kind of stillness or sense of suspended time, in part because of Hamelin's frequent micro tempo fluctuations & ritardandi on individual notes. I would characterise it as languid and hazy, maybe a bit Scriabinesque.

This reminded me I should revisit the Michael Korstick recording though.

I think Hamelin tends to indulge in the resonances of the piano in the Feldman too, more than Tibury for example.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#557


A particularly interetsting D960 here because it's contrapuntal. Who would have thought it possible?  But Koroliov's very clear hard tone and his gift for separating voices is quite genuinely revealing I think. I haven't heard the Moments Musicaux yet.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Mandryka on March 27, 2019, 08:10:03 AM
A particularly interetsting D960 here because it's contrapuntal. Who would have thought it possible?  But Koroliov's very clear hard tone and his gift for separating voices is quite genuinely revealing I think. I haven't heard the Moments Musicaux yet.

Koroliov is one one of the most consistently pianists on record that I know. Never flashy but always something to say. This looks like it's a few years old... will see if I don't find a copy.

Meanwhile in the more predictable Schubert-department:

sound samples; "insider content"


Kempff's Schubert in Blu-ray Pure Audio: A Reference Revisited


Anyone else who finds the sound improvement from CD to stereo Blu-ray marginal, at best?
I'm interested to go through the Kubelik Mahler, to see how it's there. But so far... the gains are small.

Mandryka

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 13, 2019, 05:59:30 AM
Koroliov is one one of the most consistently pianists on record that I know. Never flashy but always something to say. This looks like it's a few years old... will see if I don't find a copy.



I know it's not what you're asking but if you really want to hear Kempff play Schubert at his best, then this is what you have to get

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen