Franz Schubert

Started by Paul-Michel, April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM

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Holden

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
Nonsense, at least in Beethoven's case. Beethoven's quintet Op29 is at the very least as inspired as anything I've heard from Schubert, C major especially.


It would not be such a big deal if the Schubertians were not so quick to raise their hero above all and sundry, Beethoven in particular (and not just early Beethoven, but late Beethoven too!). I showcased some of their claims at my site also, that made for good entertainment. But under detailed examination the stack of cards comes tumbling down.


Beethoven is my God amongst the composers so while I am lauding him do I therefore have to mock Schubert? NO, of course I don't. And to say that Beethoven was a greater composer of vocal, choral and lieder compositions tends to fly in the face of general opinion. As a life long Beethoven scholar it isone area that I feel Beethoven tended to struggle in. His meagre output in this regard would tend to prove this. Beethoven only published when he was happy with the results (unless he was on commision - Wellington's Victory is and example here). Yes, give Beethoven his due but give Schubert his too.
Cheers

Holden

Josquin des Prez

#81
Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
Nonsense, at least in Beethoven's case. Beethoven's quintet Op29 is at the very least as inspired as anything I've heard from Schubert, C major especially.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Deadly, utterly wrong. There's nothing in Beethoven's entire oeuvre that is even remotely comparable to Schubert's late chamber works until the Rasumovsky quartets, and that's still arguable. 

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
And Beethoven has the added bonus of his own genuine style even in his first period, something sorely missing from Schubert's confused collection of other composers styles.

Erm, no, not really. Beethoven shows a similar "confused" collection of the styles of his predecessors. This doesn't mean he didn't have a distinct personal voice even in his early works, just like Schubert does, but his style only reached complete maturity in his middle works.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
It would not be such a big deal if the Schubertians were not so quick to raise their hero above all and sundry.

Pot calling kettle back? I mean, seriously.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
Even on Schubert's own hallowed turf, the Lied, Beethoven's Kenst du das Land makes a mockery of Schubert's effort with the same text.  0:)

Not that it wasn't clear, but you, sir, are completely and utterly insane.

premont

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM
Nonsense, at least in Beethoven's case. Beethoven's quintet Op29 is at the very least as inspired as anything
I've heard from Schubert, C major especially.

Yes, what you have heard. But you listen with your ears.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Topaz

Quote from: Holden on April 30, 2008, 12:05:53 PM
Beethoven is my God amongst the composers so while I am lauding him do I therefore have to mock Schubert? NO, of course I don't. And to say that Beethoven was a greater composer of vocal, choral and lieder compositions tends to fly in the face of general opinion. As a life long Beethoven scholar it isone area that I feel Beethoven tended to struggle in. His meagre output in this regard would tend to prove this. Beethoven only published when he was happy with the results (unless he was on commission - Wellington's Victory is and example here). Yes, give Beethoven his due but give Schubert his too.

I happen to like Schubert a great deal and would place him among my all-time favourites thus far in my listening career. Former favourites have included Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Tchaikovsky - so I reckon I'm hardly a novice.  I find Schubert's very late works (between the death of Beethoven and his own) to be among the crown jewels of classical music.  There's a lot more besides which I greatly enjoy, and I don't think there is anything of significance by Schubert which is missing in my collection.  Quite apart from all his most memorable works, I find much of interest in some of his early chamber works, and I've also collected a fair bit of his various opera works which contain lots of glorious music. For me, Schubert's sacred music is among the best and I particularly like D 950, his last Mass.  Schubert's piano duos are played rather less these days in comparison with his splendid sonatas and various miniatures, but among these exist some of the best that have ever been written.  Another very likeable, but under-played, area of Schubert's work is his violin sonatas and violin/orchestral works, e.g. D 349, 384, 574, 580, 895, 934. 

One comment made earlier by someone was that Schubert's work doesn't sound any better merely for the fact that he died young and thus a great potential was lost.  I'm afraid that I don't agree with this.  I somehow treasure what we do have all the more because I feel that are probably just the beginning of what might otherwise have been.  I'm pretty sure that had he lived at least a few years longer and continued to produce a few more works of such superb quality as D 956, D 958, D 959, D 960 his reputation today would be even more secure as among the very best.  In addition, I'm aware that Schubert wrote a lot of work without commission, very quickly, and that he probably heard little if any of the late chamber/orchestral work actually played. For this reason, the occasional rough edges, and the occasional tendency to prolixity, don't bother me.  As far as I'm concerned, nothing even remotely gets close to the magical, surreal and melancholic features that Schubert was able to infuse into his music.  As is well known, Schubert's reputation in his own life time was rather limited and it grew considerably as more hidden works were eventually discovered and catalogued.  Even though Schumann had a very high regard for Schubert, one can only wonder how much higher it might have been if he had been aware of all the other treasures that still lay hidden.

Against this, I feel rather sorry for poor Rod, as he seems to be seriously adrift of mainstream opinion about the quality of work except by Beethoven and Handel.   Of course, he is entitled to his opinion, but why does he have to be so sneering of other great composers?  Looking back casually at his various involvements here and on one or two other Boards where I have found traces of his presence, he must have told at least a hundred times by contributors that in promoting any one composer there's no need to denigrate others.  Sadly, as is clear, he never takes any notice of this.  He particularly likes to denigrate Bach, Mozart and Schubert.  Not content with living alone with this affliction, and leaving others to select their own favourites, he flies around the message board Universe like some kind of musical Flash Gordon trying to convert others to accept his priorities, which does nothing but irritate other people.  I must say too that what I find rather amazing is how seriously some seemingly knowledgeable people seem to regard his opinions as coming from some kind of musical expert, albeit one with rather extreme views, whereas in my opinion he is nothing more than the majority of Board members, i.e. an amateur.  Unless they have had a very long life of musical appreciation and they're now an octogenarian there's no way anyone can be sure that the one they're now championing or defending is the same one they will still keen on in 5 years time.   Once such a change of mind has happened a few times, as has happened to me, it tends to make one a lot more careful about pronouncing any one composer as one's musical "god". 







Holden

Quote from: Topaz on April 30, 2008, 11:51:04 PM

Against this, I feel rather sorry for poor Rod, as he seems to be seriously adrift of mainstream opinion about the quality of work except by Beethoven and Handel.   Of course, he is entitled to his opinion, but why does he have to be so sneering of other great composers?  Looking back casually at his various involvements here and on one or two other Boards where I have found traces of his presence, he must have told at least a hundred times by contributors that in promoting any one composer there's no need to denigrate others.  Sadly, as is clear, he never takes any notice of this.  He particularly likes to denigrate Bach, Mozart and Schubert. 


How can anyone denigrate Bach??????
Cheers

Holden

FideLeo

Quote from: Holden on May 01, 2008, 12:02:52 AM
How can anyone denigrate Bach??????

"In 1737 Bach was severely criticized by twenty-three year old Johann Adolf Scheibe (Der Critische Musicus, Hamburg) for removing '...every natural element from his pieces through their bombastic and muddled nature, obscuring their beauty through an over-abundance of art.'"
http://www2.nau.edu/~tas3/leipzig.html

So it was done before.  Get over it -- people have different tastes, and of course in baroque music. 

HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Josquin des Prez


FideLeo

HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 01, 2008, 06:37:15 AM
De gustibus non est disputandum.

If we all really believed that, we wouldn't have much of a forum.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

FideLeo

Quote from: Sforzando on May 01, 2008, 06:42:09 AM
If we all really believed that, we wouldn't have much of a forum.

Well calling other people 'stupid' doesn't a forum make, or does it?  ;)
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 01, 2008, 06:45:18 AM
Well calling other people 'stupid' doesn't a forum make, or does it?  ;)

Ah. That is the question, isn't it?
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Josquin des Prez

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 01, 2008, 06:45:18 AM
Well calling other people 'stupid' doesn't a forum make, or does it?  ;)

It does if they deserve it.  It fosters discussion after all.  ;)

jochanaan

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 01, 2008, 06:50:34 AM
It does if they deserve it.  It fosters discussion after all.  ;)
As long as we restrict the "stupid" appellation to opinions and keep it off people. $:)
Imagination + discipline = creativity

Monsieur Croche

Schubert is one of my favourite composers. The works of his late period, such as the String Quintet in C, the C Major Symphony, are supreme masterpieces worthy of inclusion among the best in the genre, certainly good enough to withstand comparison with, say, Beethoven's late quartets. It really is a shame that he should die early, just as his technique is maturing, otherwise he might just be the fourth composer in the legendary pantheon of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven! But then again, he may also peak early like Mendelssohn did, and never again rose to the standards of the compositions he created in this period. There is no way to tell, really; while technical refinements would usually continue to increase with more experience, inspiration is altogether a more mysterious thing and could just decline unexpectedly without precedent.

Regarding Beethoven, I would say that, objectively, he is a greater composer than Schubert in almost all genres except for vocal music. Despite the works produced in his late period, Beethoven still has the advantage of churning out masterpieces on that level on a more prolific, consistent basis, i.e. it's a case of too little, too late for poor Schubert.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on April 30, 2008, 04:03:08 AM

By coincidence I ran a comparison of string quintets, including the C Major and Op29, at my site a few weeks back, including a number of tracks, videos etc. Even the Schubert fans could not maintain your position above after these demonstrations. Another example of the Schubertian cult exposed.


Sorry, Rod, but I must say that the comparison you did at your site – and I'm not normally given to such strong language, but in this case I fear I can't hold myself – is RUBBISH. You can't just attach clips of excerpts from the respective works and expect them to speak for themselves – everyone would hear the works with different ears, wouldn't they? Why don't you post a detailed musical analysis of the works here, and we shall see how it stands up to scrutiny.

Quote from: Paul-Michel on April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM

Furthermore, this 'power' is particularly interesting, for it is both subtle (in his piano music) and more overt as in his eighth symphony. I am not sure Beethoven can be considered anywhere near as brilliant in this grasp of the subtleties of power. Schubert's music is so intelligent in its personal simplicity, without embodying the hardcore enlightentment concepts that Beethoven does. It is this quality that makes his music so timeless. It is about emotions, every day ones, about things in life we all experience, rather than more the meta-narrative ideas of Beethoven or Wagner.


The fact that Schubert's music deals more with everyday emotions and that Beethoven's ideas are more about "hardcore enlightenment concepts" does not make one composer better than the other. It just means that they would appeal to different people and different occasions.

IMO, there is no lack of subtlety in Beethoven compared to Schubert. Have you heard the late quartets? This whole myth about Beethoven about a heaven-stormer who shouts from the mountain-top is really not doing anything good for the appreciation of the aforesaid composer (It may make him more popular, though). Also, subtlety is not only reserved to small-scale works, and the fact that the music made a "massive statement" does not always mean that it has no subtlety.

Monsieur Croche

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 01, 2008, 12:14:23 AM
"In 1737 Bach was severely criticized by twenty-three year old Johann Adolf Scheibe (Der Critische Musicus, Hamburg) for removing '...every natural element from his pieces through their bombastic and muddled nature, obscuring their beauty through an over-abundance of art.'"
http://www2.nau.edu/~tas3/leipzig.html

So it was done before.  Get over it -- people have different tastes, and of course in baroque music. 



Well, that quote at least points towards the qualities present in Bach's music: contrapuntal complexity and a heavy emphasis on craftsmanship. But I think that in viewing Bach as this old-fashioned, very technical, intellectual composer, a lot of people missed that he also wrote music of great emotional power. I feel that his music is deeply human, very pure and ultimately very simple (I can't think of a better word at the time being). It's like you take this mass of emotion and distils it rigorously until all that is left is its true essence, pure gold, no excess whatsoever. "Removing every natural element"? "Obscuring their beauty"? Au contraire. Next time, after exhausting yourself from a diet of Romantic music, try to listen to some of his piano works, say The Well-Tempered Clavier or the Goldberg Variations. It's like the comforting voice of sanity.

Monsieur Croche

Quote from: jochanaan on May 01, 2008, 07:29:59 AM
As long as we restrict the "stupid" appellation to opinions and keep it off people. $:)

But some people might be too stupid to recognize this...  :D

quintett op.57

Quote from: Holden on May 01, 2008, 12:02:52 AM
How can anyone denigrate Bach??????
Why haven't you said "how can he denigrate Bach, Mozart & Schubert"?

I assume you are denigrating the 2 latter

quintett op.57

Quote from: jochanaan on May 01, 2008, 07:29:59 AM
As long as we restrict the "stupid" appellation to opinions and keep it off people. $:)
this should be the rule, indeed.

What adjective qualify the best the one who assumes he knows who is stupid and who is not?

quintett op.57

Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 01, 2008, 09:24:54 PM
I feel that his music is deeply human, very pure and ultimately very simple
apart from the contrapuntal complexity, this is true.
This is what gives its sensation of purity to works like the violin partitas.
Bach's works mix simple and complex elements.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 01, 2008, 09:24:54 PM
Well, that quote at least points towards the qualities present in Bach's music: contrapuntal complexity and a heavy emphasis on craftsmanship. But I think that in viewing Bach as this old-fashioned, very technical, intellectual composer, a lot of people missed that he also wrote music of great emotional power. I feel that his music is deeply human, very pure and ultimately very simple (I can't think of a better word at the time being). It's like you take this mass of emotion and distils it rigorously until all that is left is its true essence, pure gold, no excess whatsoever. "Removing every natural element"? "Obscuring their beauty"? Au contraire. Next time, after exhausting yourself from a diet of Romantic music, try to listen to some of his piano works, say The Well-Tempered Clavier or the Goldberg Variations. It's like the comforting voice of sanity.

You display considerable intellectual maturity for a young man of 17 or 18.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."