Franz Schubert

[Dancing Divertimentian]

The man with the "divine spark," just for those last three or four works.

?

Much more than that.

[snyprrr]

Two very different things: even though they were composed at the same time, Cherubini's SQ's are quintessentially classical, while Schubert is making his own path. One which was followed by a lot of others in the next 75 years. If you are just coming to Schubert, you will have to spend some time learning his ways, or at least I did. Worth every bit of the effort.

Please explain. He still writes in 4 mvmts. He still uses key sigs. His music still sounds like 19th cent. composer music. He does sound "smoother" than Haydn/Mozart, and less "something" than LvB, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's that "rambling" thing I'm hearing? Who "sounds" most like him, pre 1899? post 1899?

My mom says it's "quite lovely, really."

What are his trademarks? I'm noticing a sense of wallowing in luxurious beauty just for the sake of it. The slight lingering in the minor key reminds me of Shosty? Is this pre-Wagner Wagner?

I'll admit these two SQs were a strange choice for the ABQ (though they went on (EMI) to record more later).

[Gurn Blanston]

Please explain. He still writes in 4 mvmts. He still uses key sigs. His music still sounds like 19th cent. composer music. He does sound "smoother" than Haydn/Mozart, and less "something" than LvB, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's that "rambling" thing I'm hearing? Who "sounds" most like him, pre 1899? post 1899?

My mom says it's "quite lovely, really."

What are his trademarks? I'm noticing a sense of wallowing in luxurious beauty just for the sake of it. The slight lingering in the minor key reminds me of Shosty? Is this pre-Wagner Wagner?

I'll admit these two SQs were a strange choice for the ABQ (though they went on (EMI) to record more later).

Wow, lots of questions there, and I'm far from knowledgeable about theory.

Yes, he didn't reject the basics of form, he isn't nearly THAT radical   But what I hear the most of is getting away from the basic tonal center which was the hallmark of classical style. Like, his modulations aren't to a key you would expect them to be in sonata form. This sense of expectation of knowing where the key is going is of primary importance in the classical era. But Schubert sneaks off to someplace entirely different, although he may very well end up right where he is supposed to be, how he got there can be a surprise. in his late works, Beethoven uses similar methods, but Haydn and Mozart, although they were by no means "standard" in their tonal structure, would not have treated tonality that way because it was against what they were trying to do.

It would be to no advantage to try and list all the composers in the Romantic era that treated tonality like that, they pretty much all did. Schumann would be a good example. But it all leads inexorably to Wagner and Mahler. Someone else will have to take over trying to explain Wagner's use of tonality because I don't understand it myself.



----------------
Listening to:
Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Fischer - Hob 01 019 Symphony in D 1st mvmt - Allegro molto

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Please explain. He still writes in 4 mvmts. He still uses key sigs. His music still sounds like 19th cent. composer music. He does sound "smoother" than Haydn/Mozart, and less "something" than LvB, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's that "rambling" thing I'm hearing? Who "sounds" most like him, pre 1899? post 1899?

What do you want, a road map?

Spend some time with Schubert and all these topical issues like "4 movements" and such melt away.

Outwardly there might be similarities to the 'classical' idiom but nothing in Schubert looks backward to classicism. If you hear it any different you're simply not listening.

[George]

If you are just coming to Schubert, you will have to spend some time learning his ways, or at least I did. Worth every bit of the effort.

Indeed, it took me a long time to "get" Schubert, but when it finally clicked it was wonderful!

[Herman]

You just need to wait for the right time, and then you'll be fine with Schubert.

[not edward]

You just need to wait for the right time, and then you'll be fine with Schubert.

The paths to Schubert are many, strange and varied.

But I may be the only person who came back to Schubert as a result of listening to a lot of Morton Feldman.

[snyprrr]

The paths to Schubert are many, strange and varied.

But I may be the only person who came back to Schubert as a result of listening to a lot of Morton Feldman.

This I can understand!

Thanks to Gurn also, and all.

[karlhenning]

The paths to Schubert are many, strange and varied.

But I may be the only person who came back to Schubert as a result of listening to a lot of Morton Feldman.

My path is nothing so singular as yours.  I was introduced to him via a band transcription of the first movement of the Unfinished.

[secondwind]

My winding path through the thickets of Schubert:  high school orchestra, Unfinished Symphony; also high school, playing the clarinet obligato for Shepherd on the Rock; much later, The Great Symphony and the clarinet obligato part for his Salve Regina; now looking forward to working on the Octet!  I've had opportunities to hear many of the songs performed--it just makes me wish I could sing!  This may be a horribly naive point of view, by my feeling about Schubert has always been, what's not to love?

[snyprrr]

I spent the graveyard shift on amazon looking up Schubert SQs.

One issue stood out. The Vienna Konzerthaus Quartet (yes, culled from the orch.) recorded the complete SQs in the mid-fifties, and the reviewer made sure to mention all the great conductors informing the orch., and the reviewer thought that these players hit Schubert dead on. Anyone know this?

Melos' (DG) complete had some criticism for occasionally scratchy high violin sound, but otherwise got great reviews.

Auryn/CPO got ok reviews.

Kodaly/Naxos got ok reviews.

The Vienna Qrt./Camerata had one good review.

Leipziger/MDG looks like the cadillac, but I wonder if the Konzerthaus Qrt. shines beyond them.

btw- I HAVE to comment. Seems everyone thinks I'm not ready for Schubert, but as William Shatner sang, "I'm ready to go anywhere...where...ere...ere"! I think you're all being unfair. I just was reminded that Schubert's last in G, D887, is 50mins long, and, I AM SURE, that if I would have heard this or the Quintet in C first, my initial post would have been a lot different.

You'd all agree D887 is in a different league than "Rosamunde", or the g-minor, no? Or practically anything else, I'm sure.

The snotty little upstart in me takes umbrage that I have to "get" Schubert. Surely, had I listened to a 50min, endlessly beautiful SQ of "heavenly length", I would have got it. And yes, if he wrote it in 3 days, I would have got that. And, yes, I get that Schubert doesn't "look back." I just get pingy when it is suggested that a composer's "secrets" have eluded me. I just shouldn't have posted until I'd heard D887, that's all, and no one can hold my empty wallet against me, can they? I call em as I hear em, and these two SQs were not my choice, they were ABQ's. Certainly no one here would pick these two over D887?

I've noticed many reviewers preferred early or late Schubert to middle Schubert, and maybe that's why I had an "uh...ok" reaction to D173 in g-minor. It's "just another" early 18th cent./20min. SQ, whereas D887 is definitely not. I'm a masterpiece junkie, and, as such, am intolerable. I only want the richest cream. ok, enough of my petulance.

Any recommends for D887? I'm drawn to the ABQ/EMI (1997) because of the glowing reviews. What's the loooongest version? (not that that is a consideration)

Again, thanks to all, and please don't quote my harshest language, or be offended. I pick things up pretty quick.

[Herman]

You'd all agree D887 is in a different league than "Rosamunde", or the g-minor, no? Or practically anything else, I'm sure.

No I disagree. The three last quartets are great, and don't bite each other.

[Gurn Blanston]

No I disagree. The three last quartets are great, and don't bite each other.

Truly. The a minor is MY favorite of the 3.

[ChamberNut]

Truly. The a minor is MY favorite of the 3.

Ditto, Gurnmeister! 

[snyprrr]

I was playing the Rosamunde while I was writing earlier today, when my mum came by and said, "Oh, I've heard this before," I suppose during the quotation of song, which made me just wonder, Was it in a film? This tickled me.

So I was listening to Rosa, and yea, it gets better each time, no doubt. There are dramatic moments, yet their is a leisurely gait and perfectly judged tone of character. Oh, and yes, me mum likes it too!

But why isn't the invention of the 50min. SQ in three days cause for  ? I don't have an LvB timings handy. I mean, it didn't hit me until I was scrolling down the page, whoa, the timing. Where did this symphony come from? "Heavenly length?"

[robnewman]

Franz Schubert (1797-1828)
Lieder w Orch
'An Sylvia'
D891

http://www.mediafire.com/?gym1gd1ym5c

[Valentino]

D 887 gets me. Rosamunde and Maiden don't, but they are both good tries.

[Herman]

Franz Schubert (1797-1828)
Lieder w Orch
'An Sylvia'
D891

Perhaps it should be mentioned that this "Lieder w Orch" is (ironically) no authentic Schubert, who, obviously, wrote this as a song for voice and piano.

[robnewman]

Yes Herman,

For an awful moment I thought you were going to tell us how nice it is !!  

This 'Gesang' (whose manuscript is today in the Stadbibliothek in Vienna) was published early in 1828, the year of Schubert's death, as No. 4 of four songs without opus number and was later reissued as Op. 106, dedicated to Frau Marie Pachler. Since we are concerned with authenticity No. 4 of Op. 106 was actually originally reserved for Schubert's Ballade D.923 and this song was later substituted for it. You will be interested to know the title 'An Sylvia' is itself spurious (lacking authenticity, that is) and was added later.

(But none of this stops our authentic enjoyment of this arrangement, of course !)  

[ChamberNut]

For Schubert's Piano Sonatas, what would be the general recommendation.....only the late ones, or all of them?  And if just the last ones, just the last three, or last *insert number*?