Franz Schubert

[Brahmsian]

I'm glad you're still enjoying it, Ray. 
Schubert chamber does sound like a great choice for this evening, I think I'll join you.

Absolutely! 

[Brahmsian]

This morning, from these magnificent performances! 

Schubert

String Quartet movement in C minor, D703
String Quartet # 15 in G major, D887
String Quartet # 14 in D minor, D810 "Death and the Maiden"

Melos Quartett
DG

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[TheGSMoeller]

This morning, from these magnificent performances! 

Schubert

String Quartet movement in C minor, D703
String Quartet # 15 in G major, D887
String Quartet # 14 in D minor, D810 "Death and the Maiden"

Melos Quartett
DG

[asin]B00002DEH3[/asin]

Excellent, Ray. Great recordings. Also, # 14 and 15 would crack my top 5 favorite SQs. Have a great weekend, my friend. 

[Brahmsian]

Listening to this incredible sonata, and amazing performance! 

Schubert

Piano Sonata in D major, D850

Schiff, piano

Decca

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[Brahmsian]

Good morning!  Now listening to what I now refer to as "The Sergeant Sonata" - as I know Sarge really digs this one.  A one movement beauty!

Schubert

Piano Sonata Mvt. in F sharp minor, D571

Schiff, piano

Decca

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[TheGSMoeller]

Does anyone have any information regarding Harnoncourt's decision to decrescendo the final chord of Schubert's 9th Symphony? I'm just curious if there was some sort of notation in the score that aided Harnoncourt in this choice, through my nine recordings of the 'Great' he is the only conductor with this ending.

I'm sure this might be mentioned in the booklet for Harnoncourt's set, but I'm not sure in which one of six areas of CDs scattered in my home it is located at.   

[amw]

Does anyone have any information regarding Harnoncourt's decision to decrescendo the final chord of Schubert's 9th Symphony? I'm just curious if there was some sort of notation in the score that aided Harnoncourt in this choice, through my nine recordings of the 'Great' he is the only conductor with this ending.

First edition (Breitkopf & Härtel)



Critical edition (ed. Brahms)



Yep, that's a decrescendo all right.

[TheGSMoeller]

First edition (Breitkopf & Härtel)

Critical edition (ed. Brahms)

Yep, that's a decrescendo all right.

So 1 out of 9 can't be wrong? 

[Brian]

So 1 out of 9 can't be wrong? 

It would make sense when you compare it to the ending of D. 956 - but I also remember reading somewhere that all the 1800s published editions (including both those) are suspect because editors were often "correcting" Schubert's "mistakes". Not sure what recent critical editions say about it.

That said... a decrescendo here would be interpreted as a "mistake" so maybe it is the original intention.

[amw]

So 1 out of 9 can't be wrong? 

Actually weird... I hadn't noticed before, but pretty much every other conductor ignores the decrescendo. Even some of the other HIPpies (Immerseel, Goodman). There's a more recent critical edition in my uni library, I'll see what they say about it on Monday.

The Revisionsbericht of the Brahms edition claims the autograph manuscript as a source, but it also cites the date of the symphony as 1828 (which we now know to be incorrect), so scholarship has possibly moved on since then.

[TheGSMoeller]

That said... a decrescendo here would be interpreted as a "mistake" so maybe it is the original intention.

Actually weird... I hadn't noticed before, but pretty much every other conductor ignores the decrescendo. Even some of the other HIPpies (Immerseel, Goodman). There's a more recent critical edition in my uni library, I'll see what they say about it on Monday.

The Revisionsbericht of the Brahms edition claims the autograph manuscript as a source, but it also cites the date of the symphony as 1828 (which we now know to be incorrect), so scholarship has possibly moved on since then.

I would be very interested in knowing what you find. I can't locate much info on the internet. But this one chord, and the enigma that is the decrescendo is filling up my head every time I listen to the 9th. Should he be? Or shouldn't he be? 

Thanks for the responses, friends! 

[amw]

According to Bärenreiter, as far as my limited German goes (there's no English translation in the edition), Schubert was in the habit of notating accents very inconsistently: >, fz, sf, fp, etc—always putting the >'s below the staff and sometimes writing them large enough that they were indistinguishable from decrescendi. (Of course a decrescendo is often implied anyway since an accent is meant to be louder than other notes in the phrase.) In this case they believe Schubert put a long accent over the second bar of the chord, which is just meant to indicate a... very strong sforzando applying to the entire chord? I don't have any idea really. Anyway, they interpret it as fz and >, no hairpin, and the same is true of the final unison of the String Quintet. And many, many other passages where the original edition put a hairpin.

If they're correct about that, according to NML, I think it would be sort of like what Blomstedt or Zinman do. In case they're not, Celi/Munich, Kubelik/BRSO, Zehetmair/Northern Sinfonia and Nott/Bamberg are keeping their options open.

[TheGSMoeller]

According to Bärenreiter, as far as my limited German goes (there's no English translation in the edition), Schubert was in the habit of notating accents very inconsistently: >, fz, sf, fp, etc—always putting the >'s below the staff and sometimes writing them large enough that they were indistinguishable from decrescendi. (Of course a decrescendo is often implied anyway since an accent is meant to be louder than other notes in the phrase.) In this case they believe Schubert put a long accent over the second bar of the chord, which is just meant to indicate a... very strong sforzando applying to the entire chord? I don't have any idea really. Anyway, they interpret it as fz and >, no hairpin, and the same is true of the final unison of the String Quintet. And many, many other passages where the original edition put a hairpin.

If they're correct about that, according to NML, I think it would be sort of like what Blomstedt or Zinman do. In case they're not, Celi/Munich, Kubelik/BRSO, Zehetmair/Northern Sinfonia and Nott/Bamberg are keeping their options open.

That is very investing. I greatly appreciate you taking the time for this, amw.

[amw]

Sinfonien / Minkowski

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From limited samples of the last movement of the Great C major I heard on NML, this was one of two recordings that stood out for me as being exceptionally interesting. (The other one was Wand/NDR, I don't know how good this is regarded as being but it's old and by a famous guy so draw your own conclusions.) After further sampling I decided I'd just get it. It is take-no-prisoners Schubert, with a tremendous amount of drive, the right doses of majesty and melancholy and excellent command of the larger structure, all played with exceptional clarity. It's a cliché to say you will hear every note, but if there are any notes you don't hear, turn the volume up.

Also: They don't make oboes like this anymore (most of the time anyway). Perhaps for good reason, but I like it.

[audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/2%20Andante%20con%20moto.mp3[/audio]

[DavidW]

I always thought of Minkowski has more of a French baroque kind of guy.  Cool beans.  I might check out that set later on down the road.

I listened to the 8th and 9th symphonies today from the Blomstedt/Dresden set.  Great command over dynamic contrast.  And the usual rich, enveloping sound of the Dresden Staatskapelle.  Thumbs up!

[jlaurson]

I always thought of Minkowski has more of a French baroque kind of guy.  Cool beans.  I might check out that set later on down the road.

I listened to the 8th and 9th symphonies today from the Blomstedt/Dresden set.  Great command over dynamic contrast.  And the usual rich, enveloping sound of the Dresden Staatskapelle.  Thumbs up!

Minkowski is awesome in many things, from Machaut to Wagner. His Haydn set at the Konzerthaus is superb. Unfortunately his Schubert on that set is a damp squib; the least satisfying recording of his that I know... counting the set as one. It's good, perhaps... but still very disappointing and not being able to hold a candle to, say, Immerseel. A shame; it could have been awesome.

Wand, in Schubert, is the real deal! His Ninth is one of the best Schubert recordings there are. Ditto his last recording of the 5th.

(See also:
This Man Should Have Known Suffering?
Karajan's Uneasy Schubert

[amw]

Well YMMV I guess—I'd pick Minkowski over Immy, though it'd be pretty close. Luckily I don't have to pick, lol. (They are rather different approaches anyway, especially in the last two.)

I still sort of want to hear Wand, I have a feeling he may turn out to be the Schubert "benchmark" everyone else ends up being compared to, inasmuch as one movement of one symphony can tell me anything.

[Sergeant Rock]

Of the Great C Majors I own, only Klemperer and Celi observe the decrescendo like Harnoncourt. I think it sounds very odd though; it doesn't follow logically the preceding bars and makes an unsatisfactory conclusion. Far better is what Maazel, Dohnányi, and Wand do, concluding with a tremendous whack of the timpani. In most performances that final note just sounds like a continuation of the timpani roll--but that's not how it's written in the score.

HARNONCOURT Concertgebouw
KLEMPERER Philharmonia
CELIBIDACHE Munich Phil
IMMERSEEL Anima Eterna
DAVIS Staatskapelle Dresden
BLOMSTEDT Staatskapelle Dresden
SINOPOLI Staatskapelle Dresden
MAAZEL SOBR
ABBADO COE
DOHNÁNYI Cleveland
FURTWÄNGLER Berlin Phil
ABENDROTH RSO Leipzig
BERNSTEIN Concertgebouw
WAND Berlin Phil
SZELL Cleveland
GIULINI Chicago


Sarge

[Brahmsian]

Today, just marveling and reveling in Schubert's great music for piano duo.

Just to name a handful of greats:

Grand Duo in C major, D 802
Lebenssturme in A minor, D 947
Fantasie in F minor, D 940
**Six Grandes Marches et Trios, D 819

I could name several more, of course.  So many standouts.

**For the 2nd of the six grandes marches and trio, the one in G minor, I swear there is a hint or referencing of Mozart's G minor String Quintet.  Does anybody else detect that?  Well, it is in G minor, but I find it is reminiscent of the opening movement of Mozart's G minor string quintet.

[Brahmsian]

First Listen (to this performance).

Courtesy of Greg Monkfrog!    Hat tip to you, Greg.

Schubert

Symphony No. 9 in C major, D944  'Great'

Norrington
The London Classical Players

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EMI Classics