Favorite Cello Concerto

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I've never managed to like either the Martinu sonatas or concertos. I have the Bendas in the sonatas and Wallfisch in the concertos--is the choice of recordings perhaps the problem?

It could very well be the recordings, Edward, though I haven't heard either of the two you mention.

What is your impression of the performances you have? Are they on the dry side? Lacking in color, perhaps? Because if they are they're not really tapping into the heart of Martinu. Martinu's quirky invention is best served with a hearty helping of color. It gives the music buoyancy and lift. If it's slighted, the music can whither.

In the cello sonatas I have Starker/Firkusny. They just nail the works. Wringing every drop of color and invention imaginable.

In the concertos I find May/Neumann just as colorful and inventive. Extracting all the necessary ingredients from the music.

[The new erato]

Both by Shostakovich + Schnittke 2 are my favorites.

When I wrote this, This was exactly the recording I was thinking of:

Unless you want the original couplings this would seem to be a good one-stop-shop for Schnittke's cello music:



Gutman is also excellent in #1, as is Rostropovich in #2.

[eyeresist]

Apparently there is a Britten cello concerto, or symphony for cello and orchestra. Has anyone heard it?

[SonicMan46]

Apparently there is a Britten cello concerto, or symphony for cello and orchestra. Has anyone heard it?

Sure, I've had the disc below for years - Ma playing the Barber & Britten cello works - CLICK on the image for some Amazonian reviews and option of MP3 downloads, if interested; I'm sure others will respond w/ additional favs! 

[Monsieur Croche]

I voted for the Dvorak. It has some of the most gorgeous melodies I have ever heard! The orchestration is rich and colourful, excellent in spotlighting the lyrical line of the cello. But I think what I like the most about it is how the music manages to sound spontaneous and effortless and at the same time maintaining a very strong sense of inevitability. The first movement is actually marked quasi improvisando by Dvorak! (This is one of the things I bear in mind when selecting recordings of this piece). My favourite version is the Rostropovich/Karajan.

Elgar's Cello Concerto is a wonderful work as well. I admire the spare orchestration and the restraint in this work; but it is these that paradoxically lend the work a most haunting quality and searing emotional punch.

Generally, the concerto is not a genre that I listen to very often because I don't usually like gratuitous virtuosic passages. The cello is one of my favourite instruments though, it has an endearing song-like and human quality, never mind the nasalness. Can anyone recommend me some not-showy, "symphonic" kind of cello concertos?

Too bad LvB did not crank one of these out. 

This reminds me of Brahms' comments when hearing Dvorak's concerto for the first time: "Why didn't I know that one could write a cello concerto like this? Had I known, I would have written one long ago." It seems to me that the greats such as Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, deliberately avoided composing concertos for cello. I wonder what difficulties are involved in doing such a thing. After all, Boccherini – a composer of much lesser stature – wrote plenty of them, didn't he? <Edit> I just saw the poll results and noticed that not a single person voted for Boccherini... so I suppose he didn't do quite a great job after all...

It could very well be the recordings, Edward, though I haven't heard either of the two you mention.

What is your impression of the performances you have? Are they on the dry side? Lacking in color, perhaps? Because if they are they're not really tapping into the heart of Martinu. Martinu's quirky invention is best served with a hearty helping of color. It gives the music buoyancy and lift. If it's slighted, the music can whither.

In the cello sonatas I have Starker/Firkusny. They just nail the works. Wringing every drop of color and invention imaginable.

In the concertos I find May/Neumann just as colorful and inventive. Extracting all the necessary ingredients from the music.

Quirky invention eh? That does sound rather interesting. Maybe I'll add it to my wish list but can you tell me more about the musical style of this work?

Sure, I've had the disc below for years - Ma playing the Barber & Britten cello works - CLICK on the image for some Amazonian reviews and option of MP3 downloads, if interested; I'm sure others will respond w/ additional favs! 

I have this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Britten-Cello-Symphony-Shostokovich-Concerto/dp/B0001HAHQ4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1209698790&sr=1-1

It is performed by the great Rostropovich, for whom the symphony is written, and conducted by Britten himself. Pretty authoritative.

[eyeresist]

Elgar's Cello Concerto is a wonderful work as well. I admire the spare orchestration and the restraint in this work; but it is these that paradoxically lend the work a most haunting quality and searing emotional punch.

I generally find Elgar's orchestration problematic: it sounds thick and often "blarey". Also, I'm not sure he was very good at developing his material. But the cello concerto is a special case, inspired from first to last, and, perhaps because he had to leave "room" for the cello, most effectively orchestrated.

This reminds me of Brahms' comments when hearing Dvorak's concerto for the first time: "Why didn't I know that one could write a cello concerto like this? Had I known, I would have written one long ago." It seems to me that the greats such as Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, deliberately avoided composing concertos for cello. I wonder what difficulties are involved in doing such a thing. After all, Boccherini – a composer of much lesser stature – wrote plenty of them, didn't he? <Edit> I just saw the poll results and noticed that not a single person voted for Boccherini... so I suppose he didn't do quite a great job after all...

Perhaps they were unaware of precedents for the form. I understand Haydn's were fairly elusive for years, and CPE Bach's concertos may well have gone unplayed from 1801 to 1899! Also, I imagine writing for a mid-range instrument might have required orchestral solutions that classical composers found unpretty, or there may have been a simple lack of brilliant virtuosos to inspire the works. This is all unfounded amateur speculation, of course.

I must confess I've never found the Brahms violin concerto very interesting. If only he'd heard the Dvorak concerto before he wrote that!


Thanks for the Britten recommends, guys. With those couplings, and those prices, I may have to get both!

[Monsieur Croche]

I generally find Elgar's orchestration problematic: it sounds thick and often "blarey". Also, I'm not sure he was very good at developing his material. But the cello concerto is a special case, inspired from first to last, and, perhaps because he had to leave "room" for the cello, most effectively orchestrated.

Indeed; I am not a great fan of Elgar's orchestration either. Still, I think that for all its flaws his orchestration has its own unique language that can be instantly recognizable, and I feel we must give him credit for that. Also, quite a number of my friends who play in orchestras have praised his orchestration for being thoughtful to the players. (I don't play any instruments myself so I can't comment on that...)

I must confess I've never found the Brahms violin concerto very interesting. If only he'd heard the Dvorak concerto before he wrote that!

I'm not sure how much of an impact the Dvorak violin concerto would have made on Brahms - being the ultra-conservative that he is, it is more likely that he would find faults with some unconventional aspects in the structure of the concerto, especially at the end of the first movement, where instead of a proper conclusion, you find a transitional passage that directly connects it to the second movement. Given  the respect that Dvorak had for Brahms, perhaps it is his Violin Concerto that would sound more Brahmsian!

[B_cereus]

It seems to me that the greats such as Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, deliberately avoided composing concertos for cello. I wonder what difficulties are involved in doing such a thing. After all, Boccherini – a composer of much lesser stature – wrote plenty of them, didn't he?

To be fair, I don't think e.g. Mozart "deliberately avoided" composing cello concertos. I am sure he would have if he had met a friend who was a great cello virtuoso. Perhaps if he had lived long enough...

As in those days they tended to compose given a reason or inspired to do so for someone. Mozart wrote his piano concertos for himself or his pupils. His horn concertos were for Leutgeb. His clarinet concerto for Stadler. Haydn wrote cello concertos because he had cellist virtuosi friends (#1 for Weigl and #2 for Kraft).

Boccherini was a great cellist himself so naturally he wrote them.

Perhaps if Mozart had met Boccherini... alas...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Quirky invention eh? That does sound rather interesting. Maybe I'll add it to my wish list but can you tell me more about the musical style of this work?

Do you mean his cello concertos?

Well, defining Martinu's style is kind of tricky. There's nothing else in the catalog I can reference to adequately illustrate his style. He's sort of his own man. He's also a bit of a stylistic chameleon, changing things up from work to work depending on mood or I suppose commission. But there are stylistic signposts that remain constant...

To pinpoint, I could grasp a little and say he's a mix of Stravinsky, Hindemith, Bartok, and such...twentieth century to the core. But really that's deceptive. Where he strikes out on his own is his sense of playfulness - but not as in 'high humor'. More like 'spice'.

Amidst all this 'spice' you'll find signs of a master, err...'brick layer'. Firm, shapely, poetic phrases are carefully erected to create a very colorful...'amusement park'. (Like I said, he was a man after quirkiness... )

When it comes to the cello concertos, I find them a great exemplar of all I described.

[quintett op.57]

Sure, I've had the disc below for years - Ma playing the Barber & Britten cello works - CLICK on the image for some Amazonian reviews and option of MP3 downloads, if interested; I'm sure others will respond w/ additional favs! 

or maybe simply this:

Unless you want the original couplings this would seem to be a good one-stop-shop for Schnittke's cello music:



Gutman is also excellent in #1, as is Rostropovich in #2.

I don't know this recording but I approve the choice of a box including the sonatas. Schnittke's chamber music's always been brilliant

[Guido]

This reminds me of Brahms' comments when hearing Dvorak's concerto for the first time: "Why didn't I know that one could write a cello concerto like this? Had I known, I would have written one long ago." It seems to me that the greats such as Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, deliberately avoided composing concertos for cello. I wonder what difficulties are involved in doing such a thing.

Cello concertos are extremely difficult to balance as the soloist is very very easily covered by the orchestra - its range and its overtones make it difficult to cut through even a few orchestral woodwinds. I can't imagine this was the main reason. Part of the reason was that the cello was nowhere near as popular as it is now - even until the 20s and 30s it would be routinely commented that the cello was not suitable for solo concertos for reasons that seem ludicrous to us now. It took great artists like Casals, Feuermann, Cassado, Suggia, Harrisson etc. to gradually change people's minds. I guess that Casals was the real reason that most people changed their minds. There were solo cellists in the 19th century, but they were no where near as popular as violinists or pianists, and their repertoire's were composed of only a few works - mostly second rate. Before Dvorak, only the Schumann and Haydn concertos can be said to be pieces of true masterpiece status - though the Haydn concerto in C was not rediscovered until 1963. The Schumann is really not a crowd pleaser in a traditional virtuoso sense either. The molique and 2 of the Neruda concertos were popular (the Molique hasn't even been recorded now), and many of the virtuoso performers composed their own - Davidoff, Popper, Klengel, Duport, Boccherini, etc. Vieuxtemps' two concertos are glittering showpieces - glorious stuff.

Anyway - what you said is actually quite wrong. As you said Brahms said he wished that he had composed a concerto (though quite why he didn't is a mystery - he lived for another 2 years after this...)

Mozart did in fact compose a concerto in F which is lost, but we have the first 6 bars in orchestration in a catalogue, so we will be able to recognise it, if we ever find it.

Beethoven offered to write a concerto for Duport, but Duport refused saying that he'd only ever play his own works! So that's why we don't have a Beethoven cello concerto!!

Mendelssohn also wrote one, but the manuscript was lost in transit to the cellist - I would guess that Mendelssohn would easily have been able to reconstruct it from his sketches/memory given his incredibly musical powers, so one wonders why he didn't - perhaps he had doubts about it?

[DavidRoss]

Can't I vote twice for Elgar?

[Wanderer]

Beethoven offered to write a concerto for Duport, but Duport refused saying that he'd only ever play his own works! So that's why we don't have a Beethoven cello concerto!!

This I didn't know. Shame on this Duport fellow! 
Considering the quality of Beethoven's cello sonatas, this concerto could have been something truly unique.

[lukeottevanger]

This I didn't know. Shame on this Duport fellow! 
Considering the quality of Beethoven's cello sonatas, this concerto could have been something truly unique.

Just keep telling yourself - if Beethoven had written this cello concerto he wouldn't have had time to write something else. Swings/roundabouts.... 

[B_cereus]

Mozart did in fact compose a concerto in F which is lost, but we have the first 6 bars in orchestration in a catalogue, so we will be able to recognise it, if we ever find it.

Cool... I didn't know that. I guess the case of the Haydn C major gives cause for optimism...

Beethoven offered to write a concerto for Duport, but Duport refused saying that he'd only ever play his own works! So that's why we don't have a Beethoven cello concerto!!

Was it Duport? Not Romberg?

Mendelssohn also wrote one, but the manuscript was lost in transit to the cellist - I would guess that Mendelssohn would easily have been able to reconstruct it from his sketches/memory given his incredibly musical powers, so one wonders why he didn't - perhaps he had doubts about it?

For once, the messenger should have been shot.

[Wanderer]

Just keep telling yourself - if Beethoven had written this cello concerto he wouldn't have had time to write something else. Swings/roundabouts.... 

A comforting thought, although I wouldn't have minded had he written a cello concerto at the expense of some of his folksong arrangements.

[BorisG]

Sure, I've had the disc below for years - Ma playing the Barber & Britten cello works - CLICK on the image for some Amazonian reviews and option of MP3 downloads, if interested; I'm sure others will respond w/ additional favs! 

Me, too, almost 20 years. It still plays fine. 

[Guido]

Yes you are right - Romberg, not Duport. I'm an idiot  .

[Monsieur Croche]

Do you mean his cello concertos?

Well, defining Martinu's style is kind of tricky. There's nothing else in the catalog I can reference to adequately illustrate his style. He's sort of his own man. He's also a bit of a stylistic chameleon, changing things up from work to work depending on mood or I suppose commission. But there are stylistic signposts that remain constant...

To pinpoint, I could grasp a little and say he's a mix of Stravinsky, Hindemith, Bartok, and such...twentieth century to the core. But really that's deceptive. Where he strikes out on his own is his sense of playfulness - but not as in 'high humor'. More like 'spice'.

Amidst all this 'spice' you'll find signs of a master, err...'brick layer'. Firm, shapely, poetic phrases are carefully erected to create a very colorful...'amusement park'. (Like I said, he was a man after quirkiness... )

When it comes to the cello concertos, I find them a great exemplar of all I described.

Well, that sounds like something I have to hear myself to get a picture of. Very well, then - in the cart!

Cello concertos are extremely difficult to balance as the soloist is very very easily covered by the orchestra - its range and its overtones make it difficult to cut through even a few orchestral woodwinds. I can't imagine this was the main reason. Part of the reason was that the cello was nowhere near as popular as it is now - even until the 20s and 30s it would be routinely commented that the cello was not suitable for solo concertos for reasons that seem ludicrous to us now. It took great artists like Casals, Feuermann, Cassado, Suggia, Harrisson etc. to gradually change people's minds. I guess that Casals was the real reason that most people changed their minds. There were solo cellists in the 19th century, but they were no where near as popular as violinists or pianists, and their repertoire's were composed of only a few works - mostly second rate. Before Dvorak, only the Schumann and Haydn concertos can be said to be pieces of true masterpiece status - though the Haydn concerto in C was not rediscovered until 1963. The Schumann is really not a crowd pleaser in a traditional virtuoso sense either. The molique and 2 of the Neruda concertos were popular (the Molique hasn't even been recorded now), and many of the virtuoso performers composed their own - Davidoff, Popper, Klengel, Duport, Boccherini, etc. Vieuxtemps' two concertos are glittering showpieces - glorious stuff.

Anyway - what you said is actually quite wrong. As you said Brahms said he wished that he had composed a concerto (though quite why he didn't is a mystery - he lived for another 2 years after this...)

Mozart did in fact compose a concerto in F which is lost, but we have the first 6 bars in orchestration in a catalogue, so we will be able to recognise it, if we ever find it.

Beethoven offered to write a concerto for Duport, but Duport refused saying that he'd only ever play his own works! So that's why we don't have a Beethoven cello concerto!!

Mendelssohn also wrote one, but the manuscript was lost in transit to the cellist - I would guess that Mendelssohn would easily have been able to reconstruct it from his sketches/memory given his incredibly musical powers, so one wonders why he didn't - perhaps he had doubts about it?

Very enlightening post, Guido. 

Anyway, I think this sense of deliberate avoidance is evident at least in Brahms. My interpretation of that quote is: "I didn't know that any one had done it before, so it must be very difficult/impossible to do. Therefore, I might as well refrain from doing so, lest I churn out a dud composition."

I totally forgot about the incident with Beethoven. If memory serves, the offer was made to Romberg in 1790, well before Beethoven even wrote his First Symphony (in 1800), so the concerto, if it had been written, would likely not be first-rate Beethoven - bearing in mind, of course, that the "second-rate" works of Beethoven is oftentimes better than the best works of other composers. And yes, I would prefer this much over his folk-song arrangements...

I remain optimistic about the Mozart and the Mendelssohn concertos.

[Danny]

Shosty's First CC for me.