Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest

[greg]

Hmm, looks more like Variations on a list of favorites by GGGGGGREG   

it does say "five you think are greatest"- so that'd mean, roughly, that you like them + they are historically important/have great skill etc.

[karlhenning]

In more breadth . . . .

I agree that this is an inherently silly (if enjoyable) exercise, but here's my dilemma: when I see "greatest", I think not only in terms of aesthetic quality but also of influence and innovation.  That said, I agree that there are many great Russian, Italian, French, etc. composers; but honestly, if we've only got 5 spots, who's going to knock off Mozart or Bach?

That is the dilemma, and the silliness, the statisticisation of culture.  The misprision that we can have a "five greatest" (and we all have fun with it, but I for one admit that I enjoy the discussion generated by the question more than the [impossible] lists).  That there is a "fixed" five, or ten, or twenty; because (as you neatly observe) who's going to bin Mozart? Apart from the juvenilia, I mean 

This has been debated so many times that the "greatest" list is largely pre-ordained (ie, if you don't think Beethoven is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank).

Which is why I labor to discourage people from thinking in this narrow, statistical way. Because (as I think you are apt to agree) if you don't think Monteverdi, Berlioz, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartók or Janáček is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank, too.  And I half resent being put in a position of seeming to do Beethoven (or Bach, or Mozart) down, by de-Germanifying my list 

(And, while Charles meant only well and fun, I'm not mad about the implicit "they're not the greatest, but I likes 'em" feel of putting The Usual Grizzled Germans in the Five Best slots, and using the Five Favorites as second-class also-rans, either.)

PS/ I enjoyed coining statisticisation; no idea which syllable the accent should fall on, though . . . .

[bhodges]

(and we all have fun with it, but I for one admit that I enjoy the discussion generated by the question more than the [impossible] lists). 
...
Because (as I think you are apt to agree) if you don't think Monteverdi, Berlioz, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartók or Janáček is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank, too. 
...
PS/ I enjoyed coining statisticisation; no idea which syllable the accent should fall on, though . . . .

Totally agree with the first two statements above. 

And I'd put accent on the first (secondary) and fifth (primary) syllables, if you're polling, although I could see just the second syllable, too. 

--Bruce

[ChamberNut]

So then, there is either a conspiracy or we've all been brainwashed if:

If a list of 5 or 10 "Greatest Composers", either prepared by music "experts", composers, and such are dominated by German speaking composers?   

[karlhenning]

So then, there is either a conspiracy or we've all been brainwashed if . . . .

I think there's an obvious lack of balance in a situation where, in the posts of the first page of this thread, of the 56 best-composer-slots filled in, only 6 were populated with a non-German-speaking composer.

[ChamberNut]

I think there's an obvious lack of balance in a situation where, in the posts of the first page of this thread, of the 56 best-composer-slots filled in, only 6 were populated with a non-German-speaking composer.

Ok, so then explain it to me Karl.  How can one come up with an "objective" list of "greatests", if one can even do so?

What criteria would you "accept"?  2 Germans, 1 American, 1 French and 1 Russian?

[karlhenning]

Ok, so then explain it to me Karl.  How can one come up with an "objective" list of "greatests", if one can even do so?

What criteria would you "accept"?  2 Germans, 1 American, 1 French and 1 Russian?

You contest the obvious imbalance which I pointed out?

[ChamberNut]

You contest the obvious imbalance which I pointed out?

What if my list of 5 "Greatest" or say a "musical expert's" list of "Greatest" has no more than 1 particular nationality, but is all from the same era (ie. all from the Romantic Era)?  Ok, I'll try and see if you like this:

Perotin
Purcell
Bach
DeBussy
Copland

[karlhenning]

Before I reply, did you perhaps not see these remarks of mine?

[karlhenning]

Your responses, ChamberNut, have the appearance (which you perhaps do not intend) of reacting to one point, and disregarding the larger discussion.  You will note that I have forborne entirely to offer a 'five greatest' list.  I think that, if my earlier remarks mean anything to you, you will understand that it is pointless to ask my approval of any list of five.

I just don't endorse that.

[Haffner]

In more breadth . . . .

That is the dilemma, and the silliness, the statisticisation of culture.  The misprision that we can have a "five greatest" (and we all have fun with it, but I for one admit that I enjoy the discussion generated by the question more than the [impossible] lists).  That there is a "fixed" five, or ten, or twenty; because (as you neatly observe) who's going to bin Mozart? Apart from the juvenilia, I mean 

Which is why I labor to discourage people from thinking in this narrow, statistical way. Because (as I think you are apt to agree) if you don't think Monteverdi, Berlioz, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartók or Janáček is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank, too.  And I half resent being put in a position of seeming to do Beethoven (or Bach, or Mozart) down, by de-Germanifying my list 

(And, while Charles meant only well and fun, I'm not mad about the implicit "they're not the greatest, but I likes 'em" feel of putting The Usual Grizzled Germans in the Five Best slots, and using the Five Favorites as second-class also-rans, either.)

PS/ I enjoyed coining statisticisation; no idea which syllable the accent should fall on, though . . . .

You have an excellent point, Karl. I just got my Tchaikovsky/Karajan Symphony cd and I now regret the lack of Tchaikovsky in the polls in particular.

[karlhenning]

Well, and I misspoke, Andy, in echoing too inconsiderately jwinter's remark viz. Beethoven.

We all necessarily have starting points, and are all on a pathway of discovering the riches of the literature. I should not say that "if you don't think Monteverdi, Berlioz, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartók or Janáček is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank";  for the fact is that the newbie starts somewhere, and may not have any exposure, early on, to Monteverdi, Bartók or Janáček (e.g.).  It is not beautiful to suggest that someone who hasn't yet made his way there, is 'clueless'.

Still, in a perfectly neutral sense, there is ignorance, the lack of knowledge.  Take a newbie who readily signs on to the "the five greatest composers are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and Wagner" primer.  There's a lot of music just there, that one can be occupied for years getting to know music, and most of it's great.  Mention to this newbie the names Stravinsky, Shostakovich or Bartók.  (a) The newb has not perhaps had the time or opportunity to 'get there', (b) one of the newb's 'anchors' in this bewlidering task of getting to know the classical literature, is this short list of great composers, which in turn guides a working definition of 'great music', to match which those composers who do musically else are going to fail, in some degree.  It is no great distance to (c) the newb feels a proprietary interest in that list of five, and views other contenders for the title "Great Composer" with something like suspicion.

I just think it more helpful, earlier on, to call them "five great composers' rather than "The Five Greatest Composers of All Time."

[BachQ]

I think there's an obvious lack of balance in a situation where, in the posts of the first page of this thread, of the 56 best-composer-slots filled in, only 6 were populated with a non-German-speaking composer.

Speaking only for myself, a composer's nationality is UTTERLY irrelevant in my decisionmaking.  Of the multitude of factors I consider and weigh, nationality / culture / race is 100.00% unimportant.

[ChamberNut]

I just think it more helpful, earlier on, to call them "five great composers' rather than "The Five Greatest Composers of All Time."

I agree with this Karl.   

[karlhenning]

Speaking only for myself, a composer's nationality is UTTERLY irrelevant in my decisionmaking.  Of the multitude of factors I consider and weigh, nationality / culture / race is 100.00% unimportant.

Fine.  But there is a difference between factors which you consciously bring to the table, today, and factors which have directly or indirectly informed your path to this point.

[Mark G. Simon]

Among the top echelons of the great, it's meaningless to debate which composer is the greater. There are certainly more than five names in the top echelon, but the five names that jump immediately to my mind are all German-speaking ones:

Bach
Beethoven
Haydn
Mozart
Brahms

Germans do seem to dominate 18th-19th century composition. For 20th century music, Russians have a strong showing:

Stravinsky
Schoenberg
Bartok
Shostakovich
Prokofiev.

That's my list, in any case. (Notice this thread is asking us to name "the five you think are the greatest", not the five who are objectively the greatest).

My personal favorites among composers are Haydn and Stravinsky, but I could easily add any of the names I've given as the greatest to fill out my list of favorites and then throw in a dozen or so other names such as Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn, Handel, Bruckner, Mahler, Dvorak, Sibelius etc etc etc.

[karlhenning]

Of the multitude of factors I consider and weigh, nationality / culture / race is 100.00% unimportant.

So long as they compose in the key of D Minor . . . .

[ChamberNut]

Fine.  But there is a difference between factors which you consciously bring to the table, today, and factors which have directly or indirectly informed your path to this point.

So how do (we) change this?  If 95% of the Music History literature and such imply that 8 out of the 10 Greatest are German Composers, how do we change that mindset?

[MN Dave]

So how do (we) change this?  If 95% of the Music History literature and such imply that 8 out of the 10 Greatest are German Composers, how do we change that mindset?

We don't. 

[karlhenning]

So how do (we) change this?  If 95% of the Music History literature and such imply that 8 out of the 10 Greatest are German Composers, how do we change that mindset?

My approach in part has been, to deny that we have a closed set of ten;  and in part to point out that if 8 of those 10 belong to some self-referential group, then the idea of 'great music' may well in part be front-loaded with presumptions related to the way that those 8 have made music.